6x6Talk Forum
6x6 Technical Questions => T-20 Transmission => Topic started by: whipperag on October 10, 2017, 06:59:14 PM
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You can get rid of a lot of excess lateral movement by doing
a few simple things.
First thing is to drill and tap the case so you can make the U-channels
pivot in the center. drill a 1/2" hole through the U-channel,
and use a 1/2" shoulder bolt for it to pivot on.
For the adjustment part, grind a screwdriver slot in the head of the bolt.
That makes it easy to turn inside the U-channel.
then cut a small piece of 3/16" brake line to fill the void between the
head of the bolt and the C-clip. That alone will take out about a 1/2" of slop
on your laterals especially on long ones like a Max IV.
banana banana banana banana
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Oh I like it!! Thanks Whipper 👍🏻👍🏻
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Seems simple I have the same problem, that will be the next fix. Thanks from me to whip
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Whipp You never seas to AMAZE me !! whistling
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and when its working right its like buying a new car banana
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If you have the old style popsicle stick, this is a way to get rid of the slop in it.
buy grade 8 3/8" bolts. if you get them a little longer they will have a shoulder on them.
That shoulder is a little bigger than the threads, and fits real nice in the popsicle stick hole and also a nice fit in the eyelet.
Cut the bolt off so the threads are a little longer then the crimp nut.
Use a good quality crimp nut.
Do not tighten too tight, the bolt needs to be able to spin, with no side to side slop.
DO NOT use nylock nuts.
dance dance dance dance dance dance dance
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is that your pic or R.I.s
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YES banana dance banana dance banana dance popcorn popcorn
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One in the Same I would say whistling fls
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I did wippers idea with the break line on my machines and made a big difference.
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I did wippers idea with the break line on my machines and made a big difference.
I will be doing the same with mine.
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perfect timing whipper! I noticed the lateral slop on my Max IV the other day and it's kinda driving me nuts. I'll give this a try - thanks!!
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Wow, what a difference those brake line spacers make. Great stuff Whipper.
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You Know he IS the MAN ! 8)
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Just to Add to the subject an alternative to the U channel mod.
Here is an alternate conversion to the "U" channel using 1/4" x 1 1/4" flat bar.
The slots are the same as the "U" channel. The lateral pull point was changed to give slightly more mechanical advantage. The new Popsicle sticks do not have a pivot but take some of the slop out of the system. The hardware is all commercial. I have since added a pivot pin on the case to to reduce the slop even further.
http://6x6talk.com/gallery/78-180318080219-7171793.jpeg
http://6x6talk.com/gallery/78-180318080213-717763.jpeg
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Nice Jersey I like the Popsicle over the channel myself. Also put the Pivot pin in the center . Just a little slop here will translate to ALOT at the sticks !
Great post ;)
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Here's a little cartoon I made of the popsicle stick.
banana banana banana
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Didn't you have some of those made up extra ?
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No. dance dance dance
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Alright there’s something I don’t have on my headache machine, Should I ??
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Nice Jersey I like the Popsicle over the channel myself. Also put the Pivot pin in the center . Just a little slop here will translate to ALOT at the sticks !
Great post ;)
You can change the distance between the lower trans band hole to the pull rod hole and change the force and required stroke at the laterals also the length of the sticks. The geometry and pivot clearance determines allot of the slop. Im a fan of heim joints on all the latteral connections. The bolted connection at the popsicles is ok but probably better with a machined pin. i also use conical washers on the pin to preload the connection to reduce the slop further. You can also add a pivot point on the frame to hold the popsicles to the case without machining/ pulling the case .
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I used Whippers little drawing a couple of years ago on my MAX II rebuilt and what a difference the popsicle sticks and split shifter make IMO. I have some pics posted of it here in the gallery section.. I cant thank the guy's here enough who have built this forum and help us all out. :))
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How do you do the adjustment. The only way I know is with the adjustment forks I bought from Richard. Or do you just make top and bottom equal
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Nice Jersey I like the Popsicle over the channel myself. Also put the Pivot pin in the center . Just a little slop here will translate to ALOT at the sticks !
Great post ;)
You can change the distance between the lower trans band hole to the pull rod hole and change the force and required stroke at the laterals also the length of the sticks. The geometry and pivot clearance determines allot of the slop. Im a fan of heim joints on all the latteral connections. The bolted connection at the popsicles is ok but probably better with a machined pin. i also use conical washers on the pin to preload the connection to reduce the slop further. You can also add a pivot point on the frame to hold the popsicles to the case without machining/ pulling the case .
Jersey you happen to have a pic of the pinned popsicles. Very interested in doing this
Thank you
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How do you do the adjustment. The only way I know is with the adjustment forks I bought from Richard. Or do you just make top and bottom equal
Pull the pins and adjust the eye bolts. The case side of my popsicle rocks against the raised ridge on the case like the “U” channel setup
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Nice Jersey I like the Popsicle over the channel myself. Also put the Pivot pin in the center . Just a little slop here will translate to ALOT at the sticks !
Great post ;)
You can change the distance between the lower trans band hole to the pull rod hole and change the force and required stroke at the laterals also the length of the sticks. The geometry and pivot clearance determines allot of the slop. Im a fan of heim joints on all the latteral connections. The bolted connection at the popsicles is ok but probably better with a machined pin. i also use conical washers on the pin to preload the connection to reduce the slop further. You can also add a pivot point on the frame to hold the popsicles to the case without machining/ pulling the case .
Jersey you happen to have a pic of the pinned popsicles. Very interested in doing this
Thank you
will have to get back to you later with the pic
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here is a pic of the popsical sticks on my T20, I used eye bolts with bearing's in them on my popsical sticks and do not recommend it, use plan eye bolts.
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here is a pic of the popsical sticks on my T20,
Looking at your pic and it looks like your popsicle sticks are
mounted wrong. They should be straight up and down.
The bottom should be on the inside of the eyelet towards the center of the case.
And the stick at the top should be on the outside of the eyelet.
But if your not having any trouble don't worry about it.
dance dance dance dance
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I take it the original popsicle stick trans cases had a little bit more metal in the casting to make where they mount.The channel case casting is narrower correct?
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I take it the original popsicle stick trans cases had a little bit more metal in the casting to make where they mount.The channel case casting is narrower correct?
Yes, but you can make up the difference with some washers or custom made spacers.
It is better that they have a pivot point rather then rock against the case.
dance dance dance dance
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Whipper
As always your observation is awesome, I prob dont have a issue do to the rod end bearings. When I change them out I will put them like your picture. I do have more play than wanted with the rod bearings.
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Whipper
As always your observation is awesome, I prob dont have a issue do to the rod end bearings. When I change them out I will put them like your picture. I do have more play than wanted with the rod bearings.
How much travel do you have at the top of your laterals at the throttle cable?
popcorn popcorn popcorn banana banana banana banana
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I take it the original popsicle stick trans cases had a little bit more metal in the casting to make where they mount.The channel case casting is narrower correct?
Yes, but you can make up the difference with some washers or custom made spacers.
It is better that they have a pivot point rather then rock against the case.
dance dance dance dance
Thanks Whipper I need to do this as I've got 2 popsicles and 5 channels. hate the excess play in them. I have done the brake line mod to a few already and that did help but just not the same as a popsicle trans ;) ;)
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Whipper
I have about 11 inches total from full forward to full reverse i think, never really measured it. At the time I overhauled my machine I went with Rod ends with bearing in them on all my linkages.. this was a mistake as I do have play in them but i am use to it and it does not affect driving at all. All the linkages on my aircraft I work on have these type of rod ends so I figured why not put them on my machine. I still plan on replacing them all and If I dont like it i will put the old ones back on.
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Whipper
I have about 11 inches total from full forward to full reverse i think, never really measured it.
Holy Crap!!!! That’s crazy.
I just went out and measured all our cars, and it’s easy to do with a tape measure against
The dash and measure at the throttle cable.
Bridget’s SS. 3.5”
Godzilla. 4.5”
Gila monster 4.0”
Scorpion 4.0”
Yellow Spider 4.5”
It will be a lot eaiaser to drive if you cut that in half.
I measured the travel of my plungers at the T-20 eyelets and it
Is a little more that 5/16”
Hope this helps. :) :) :)
banana banana banana
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iagree
That is a LOT of stick movement !!
I am just around Whippers spec's But Whipper says he is taking it at the Throttle cable and NOT the top of the stick . Am I rite on this whip ?
If so that will make a Big difference in the two #'s whistling
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GOLIATH is at 2.75 I like it TAUT whistling
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iagree
That is a LOT of stick movement !!
I am just around Whippers spec's But Whipper says he is taking it at the Throttle cable and NOT the top of the stick . Am I rite on this whip ?
If so that will make a Big difference in the two #'s whistling
Yes you are write,right,rite, or as Elmer Fudd would say white, hilarious the Max IV sticks are a lot taller.
Just picked a spot as a reference.
banana banana banana banana banana
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GOLIATH is at 2.75 I like it TAUT whistling
I Taut I Tau a puddy tat.
WTF. dance dance dance dance dance
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Ok that just Weird hilarious
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this is at the top of the laterals, I will measure for sure when i get home, could be less. I will replace the eyelet bolts this rotation home if I have time. ALWAYS LEARNING FROM YOU GUYS, Thanks
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Check your t-20 temp befor and after you adjust the bands up. There is a point when you reduce the stick travel and drag te brake bands.
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I haven’t measured mine on the max 4 but I know I’m close to that 11” of travel like garret
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I haven’t measured mine on the max 4 but I know I’m close to that 11” of travel like garret
You should be able to get it down to 6” with adjusting the “u” channels without any issues. Assuming you have the stock sticks and links
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Pull out the hair pin clips and adjust the bolts in the “u” channel evenly to where you can’t set them on the flat of the bolts. Richard has a nice tool to pull the bolts forward.
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I have the tool but I have a machine shop doing a bunch of work for me. Axle, brackets for the tracks, and also the strap, I also pulled both of the steering rods and he is making them new out of solid rod, not tube steel so I was going to add your drawling of the laterals, to the mix. Then just put bigger numbers on the check whistling as I wait for parts to be made popcorn
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Jersey and whipper sorry for not understanding the popsicle stick design. I’ve got everything but one last peice of the puzzle. Do I need to drill and tap the t20 trans for them to hinge on or can I just replace the u channel with the new popsicle sticks that I’m having made from whippers drawling. I’m a little confused because I thought I read where Jersey says they can ride on the t 20 housing, but in some if the pics it looks like it’s drilled and tapped or a rod to ride on? Sorry if it’s a stupid question. popcorn
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you can replace the U-channels with the popsicle sticks.
you do need to drill a hole in the boss in the casting for a dowel pin for the popsicle stick to piviot
on. The later model case has a shorter boss in the casting so you will have to make a custom spacer to make up the difference.
these 2 pics should show it all.
the dowel pin needs to be a press fit in the case.
dance dance dance dance
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Jerseys reply #25 is where I got confused where he mentions the popsicle sticks riding on the case. The picture and explanation you sent is porfect thanks whipper, so I’m going to assume I need to pull the trans to do this right?
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Oh ya! I like that. Nice work👍🏻👍🏻
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Jerseys reply #25 is where I got confused where he mentions the popsicle sticks riding on the case. The picture and explanation you sent is porfect thanks whipper, so I’m going to assume I need to pull the trans to do this right?
Yes pull the T-20 out so you can do it right.
You need to drill the dowel pin hole with a good drill press or a mill,
Or the hole will end up crooked and over size.
dance dancec
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Would you please look at the t20 trans seal picture and tell me what you guys think. There is hardly any up and down play, and no in and out play.
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Would you please look at the t20 trans seal picture and tell me what you guys think. There is hardly any up and down play, and no in and out play.
Looks bad, time for a total rebuild.
Your ramps on the driven clutch look all chewed up.
Whats going on there??
popcorn popcorn popcorn
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I don’t know I just pulled it to do the laterals and this is what I saw the last rebuild can’t be more than 100 hrs old. Can it be the seal just slipped or should I start again. The last time I took it in I had to buy the seal kit, they broke it open and said everything looked fine.
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Do you think I should order a new driven clutch from Richards
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that seal should have been staked in to keep it from sliding out and what's up with that clutch.
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That Clutch has Issues !!! And that seal should have Never poped out on it's own ! Is the Vent open ?
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Well I guess that was the noise I was hearing. Sounds like the 3 of you are saying the same thing, clutch is shot!!! So with that, and all 3 of you know how well I destroy things can you tell me whether to buy a new clutch from Richards or do we do something different? Notice I said we hilarious I’ll buy it just tell me what and where to buy it.
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Get a NEW Clutch . Also Put a New seal in AFTER you check the side case for why it pushed out. Also Make sure you have a Good vent on the tranny as you may be overheating it a little whistling
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Get a NEW Clutch . Also Put a New seal in AFTER you check the side case for why it pushed out. Also Make sure you have a Good vent on the tranny as you may be overheating it a little whistling
iagree From the looks of that T-20 You may find some other problems inside.
Take it apart and CLEAN it first inside and out.
I’m guessing the case bushings are worn,now is the time to make everything right.
Check out the gear teeth on the ring gear too.
popcorn popcorn banana banana
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Ordering now
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Get a NEW Clutch . Also Put a New seal in AFTER you check the side case for why it pushed out. Also Make sure you have a Good vent on the tranny as you may be overheating it a little whistling
iagree From the looks of that T-20 You may find some other problems inside.
Take it apart and CLEAN it first inside and out.
I’m guessing the case bushings are worn,now is the time to make everything right.
Check out the gear teeth on the ring gear too.
popcorn popcorn banana banana
iagree
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you know as hard as you push it you might want to consider a COOL T-20 build......see the thread THE ORIGINAL COOL T-20 banana banana
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Help me understand the 1” bar with the 1/16 hole drilled in it, in the tube for pressure. I understand and have most everything for that build ( I think ) but not shure why you can’t just continually circulate the fluid threw the cooler and filter. I also noticed you have the u channels still on not the flat stock, is there a reason.
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the pump flows too fast so I slowed it down with an orifice. thats why you have to check the head pressure with a gauge so as not overheat the pump. the u-channels came on the new T-20 that I bought from R.I. probably the last new one they sold before they jumped ship. WHIPPER set up the pivot points on the u-channels before I installed it. if you continuously run the pump I think it starts cavitating because it dosen't really hold a lot fluid to begin with. on mine I tend to run alittle more fluid in it to help it. so when i use mine its normally on the trail after a very hard ride I slow down a little and run the pump and fan to cool it back down and then start hammering again.
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What is your thoughts on the return oil? I assume since it’s going back in the low spot on the trans there will be no aeration of the oil? With the lower pressure I’m shure that helps, my concern is it’s only 1 quart of fluid. Although you and whipper have been running them so I’m shure I’m overthinking it.
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so what you do is add the qt of oil prime the system and then top it off. try and put a little extra in if you can. total oil in mine is almost 2 qts.
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Trans is out, I have the pump and the cooler/ fan combo is cheap enough, I’m having the t 20 tapped for the laterals what’s 2 more holes
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good deal . you won't be disappointed. anything to keep that badboy cool
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iagree iagree banana dance
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As you guys and gals know I completely trust your judgment BUT, I had a trans guy take the trans today and I showed him pictures of the cooling system which he thought was a great idea BUT he told me that before he tapped the trans he recommend to install a 12 volt fan at the trans and then if we still have issues to do the trans cooler. He did tell me that he would know more tomorrow or Tuesday when he split the halves and got a better look at the seals and tested the fluid. Once again I trust this forum but it doesn’t hurt to ask. As a side note,the trans shop I’ve been dealing with only deals in transmissions and transfer cases NOT t20 transes (wedgelish) I think.
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Some of the verdict is in Trans vent was completely clogged, there going to tap it with a nipple and put a hose on it that extends up on the table
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BINGO ;)
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You called that one
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Yes Been there done That whistling
Lost a $2500. rear in a Sprint car due to the same thing !
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Does that kind if thing mess up planetary gears or do you think I’ve just destroyed some seals. There opening it up today hopefully but the suspense on what I destroyed is killing me
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As long as you Didn't run it out of oil I would think your good to go . That seal is High enough there should have still been oil to keep it alive !
Nice part about a Higher vent is you can run just a Little more oil in it and not have it blowing out.
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Nope it was full of oil. popcorn popcorn popcorn I guess I sit back and wait
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Glad you're opening it up to make sure & find out what's been going on. You may not like what you find or it may be better than you thought. Only way to find out is to open the vault.
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Have a Beer ! You going to be good to go Buddy banana
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Yes Been there done That whistling
Lost a $2500. rear in a Sprint car due to the same thing !
That is an expensive lesson.
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RACING IS AN EXPENSIVE TEACHER ! hilarious whistling rofl
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Make sure they check the clearance of the case bushings where the drums ride in,
banana dance popcorn popcorn
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I will make that call tomorrow. They did want to know why the laterals had to be made out of 60 grade hardened metal. I said I don’t know but the guy that made the drawling has more time at this than we do, so I suggest we just follow the drawings and do it.
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If it's not hardened (like factory ones were), the pins that go through the eyebolts could (probably would) wallow out or elongate the hole over time. Do it right now or do it right later.
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Thank you mod
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One band, and I need new thingamagigers that are brass in color and the seals sit in, on the case halves. There’s 4 all together, and yes to the 50 hardness steel also. Thanks for the advice. Richards appreciated it to $$$$$$$$$$$$$. But we’re going forward now banana banana banana popcorn popcorn
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I checked my Laterals and man was I way off on my last post, my total travel from full reverse to full forward at the throttle is 6.5 inches.. and it looks like I can even tighten that up some..