6x6Talk Forum

General Category => SPRINGER: Talk pertaining to custom ATV's => Topic started by: SARgo1 on September 03, 2017, 11:40:39 PM

Title: Question on springer builds.....
Post by: SARgo1 on September 03, 2017, 11:40:39 PM
So I see what looks like a smattering of VW bug parts in the axles and some custom stuff in the arms/mounts. That all seems fairly straight forward.

I'm wondering what you guys are using for shocks/springs?

Are those quad pieces? or maybe side by side stuff?

Dirt bike maybe?

Inquiring minds want to know....those same minds who might be looking at building their own 8x8 springer....

 8)
Title: Re: Question on springer builds.....
Post by: WFO on September 04, 2017, 12:05:59 AM
yes inner and outer joints are v.w the rest is custom. inner and outer axles splined are custom, side plates custom fit . the main thing you need to do is figure out how to mount the suspension, on a side plate or individual to each wheel, you will have to have room on the inside to run supports from side to side to keep it all in line and true. WHIPPER SPENT A FEW YEARS ON PROTOTYPES TO GET HIS RIGHT, soooooo its not going to be easy but possible. Im not sure but the other site may still have my build documented
 
Title: Re: Question on springer builds.....
Post by: nubs on September 04, 2017, 08:52:54 AM
SARgo1 had questioned if tracks would work on a Springer in his Argo thread, guess I would like to know also.

Anybody out there try this
Title: Re: Question on springer builds.....
Post by: George on September 04, 2017, 09:05:10 AM
Easy on, easy off.

Attaching the side plates.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrDWamNRlCk&t=1s

Removing arms and outer axles.
http://vimeo.com/136628762
Title: Re: Question on springer builds.....
Post by: ascaw on September 04, 2017, 09:55:35 AM
SARgo1 had questioned if tracks would work on a Springer in his Argo thread, guess I would like to know also.


I would imagine it would work like a tank.  You may have to use heavier duty parts for the added track stress and probably limit the articulation to prevent over stressing/stretching the tracks.
Title: Re: Question on springer builds.....
Post by: Model Citizen on September 04, 2017, 10:04:24 AM
Marc (Jerseybigfoot) put tracks on his Copperhead Springer (Max II) . You never saw it, Nubs? I don't think he kept the tracks on, but he wanted to see if it would work & it did. Maybe someone can find it if it's on U-tube. 

Put in Copperhead in the Woods in your search. We, also, found one on Lewis's vimeo of Busco Beach 2013 that WE never even saw. He went through stuff we could never test for.
Title: Re: Question on springer builds.....
Post by: WFO on September 04, 2017, 10:06:36 AM
he could probably run half tracks front and rear. :)
Title: Re: Question on springer builds.....
Post by: George on September 04, 2017, 10:15:28 AM
yes inner and outer joints are v.w the rest is custom. inner and outer axles splined are custom, side plates custom fit . the main thing you need to do is figure out how to mount the suspension, on a side plate or individual to each wheel, you will have to have room on the inside to run supports from side to side to keep it all in line and true. WHIPPER SPENT A FEW YEARS ON PROTOTYPES TO GET HIS RIGHT, soooooo its not going to be easy but possible. Im not sure but the other site may still have my build documented

Here's some video of a springer running with tracks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCkA2x1BUhw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKYWBP3ySe8

Title: Re: Question on springer builds.....
Post by: wedge on September 04, 2017, 10:19:51 AM
What ever happen to Copper Head George ?
You don't see much out of him ??
Title: Re: Question on springer builds.....
Post by: George on September 04, 2017, 10:37:49 AM
What ever happen to Copper Head George ?
You don't see much out of him ??

Just like everybody else in the hobby, JBF has a bunch of projects. Right now the focus has been on the A-stock racing. I've retired the Apache from racing, Marc was never interested in racing the Copperhead. The springer class has become too fast and competition is a bit blood thirsty. It's just too expensive to risk the damaged caused by frequent collisions....but man was it fun racing the springer.  ;D
Title: Re: Question on springer builds.....
Post by: wedge on September 04, 2017, 10:43:45 AM
Got ya. Thanks for the update !
Title: Re: Question on springer builds.....
Post by: SARgo1 on September 04, 2017, 01:22:08 PM
So, anyone want to share where the shocks are sourced from?

Building the rest isn't a big problem for me....just time and money.

:)
Title: Re: Question on springer builds.....
Post by: wedge on September 04, 2017, 01:25:58 PM
You can PM wipperag as he will know what to use.
Title: Re: Question on springer builds.....
Post by: whipperag on September 04, 2017, 01:40:11 PM
The shocks are off the front of the old rangers and Rino's.
Very hard to find now. You might be able to buy them new, but remember you need 6 of them.
Good luck.

Whipper
Title: Re: Question on springer builds.....
Post by: WFO on September 04, 2017, 05:40:01 PM
hey Whipper weren't the ones on the front of GOLIATH from a kawasaki sidexside and the rears are 200 lb coils on a rhino rear shock.
but you get the point SARgo1. they have to be short enough and stout
Title: Re: Question on springer builds.....
Post by: SARgo1 on September 04, 2017, 05:47:47 PM
The shocks are off the front of the old rangers and Rino's.
Very hard to find now. You might be able to buy them new, but remember you need 6 of them.
Good luck.

Whipper

Thanks!

But I'll need 8 of them....lol!

Also, what are your sideplates made from?

steel or aluminum?

I'm thinking aluminum for mine, from a weight concern as much as anything else.....

Truthefully, it's more about what spring rates I should be looking at for the weight. This gives me a baseline to start from.
Title: Re: Question on springer builds.....
Post by: wedge on September 04, 2017, 05:50:39 PM
You need to Weigh your machine fully loaded and then divide by 8 . That way you get a close spring rate. But also figure more rate in the front due to engine and tranny !
Title: Re: Question on springer builds.....
Post by: George on September 04, 2017, 06:16:14 PM
You need to Weigh your machine fully loaded and then divide by 8 . That way you get a close spring rate. But also figure more rate in the front due to engine and tranny !

I have the pre-load set higher on the front (even though the tranny and engine are in the rear) because the front sees the most action. With an Argo, you might need stiffer springs because of all that weight.
Title: Re: Question on springer builds.....
Post by: WFO on September 04, 2017, 06:23:58 PM
on mine the front coils are slightly larger and the total length is a 1/2 longer than the rest. the centers are stock rhinos the rears are rhinos with a 200 lb coil if I'm not mistaken. its been awhile since I've looked at them because they NEVER BREAK.
Title: Re: Question on springer builds.....
Post by: whipperag on September 04, 2017, 08:27:46 PM
hey Whipper weren't the ones on the front of GOLIATH from a kawasaki sidexside and the rears are 200 lb coils on a rhino rear shock.
but you get the point SARgo1. they have to be short enough and stout
No they were all front shocks remember we had to buy after market heavier springs for the front.
I don,t think alum side plates will work, they would have or be twice as thick and a lot harder to work. With. Watch some of the under car videos and you can see the side plate flex.

Whipper
Title: Re: Question on springer builds.....
Post by: WFO on September 04, 2017, 08:44:12 PM
the rears are the blue springs you gave me because of the engine and trans in one place , too heavy. the fronts are different, they are longer than the center, i measured them. sooooo now i don't know what you gave me.  hilarious
Title: Re: Question on springer builds.....
Post by: whipperag on September 04, 2017, 09:07:22 PM
Yea, the front might be off a Kawasaki but I'm like you It's been so long I can't remember.
I don't work on mine either. I've never changed a bearing a sprocket or a chain since Godzilla was built.
It's been 6 yrs or more. banana banana banana banana.
I've been telling everyone for years how trouble free the drive train is after you put a springer kit on.
I don't do much of anything to my springers but wash them and put gas in them. Their all ready or go in a moments notice. dance dance dance.
Title: Re: Question on springer builds.....
Post by: wedge on September 04, 2017, 09:36:29 PM
Must be nice  whistling
You Build a heck of a machine whipp !! banana banana banana
Title: Re: Question on springer builds.....
Post by: SARgo1 on September 05, 2017, 05:08:33 AM
hey Whipper weren't the ones on the front of GOLIATH from a kawasaki sidexside and the rears are 200 lb coils on a rhino rear shock.
but you get the point SARgo1. they have to be short enough and stout
No they were all front shocks remember we had to buy after market heavier springs for the front.
I don,t think alum side plates will work, they would have or be twice as thick and a lot harder to work. With. Watch some of the under car videos and you can see the side plate flex.

Whipper

May I ask how thick your plates are if they are steel?
Title: Re: Question on springer builds.....
Post by: whipperag on September 05, 2017, 08:08:37 AM
They are 3/16 thick cold roll plate.
Title: Re: Question on springer builds.....
Post by: SARgo1 on September 05, 2017, 09:16:28 PM
They are 3/16 thick cold roll plate.

Jeez, I that must weight a couple pounds!

Im surprised it floats as high as it does on some of the swimming vids you've posted on youtube.

:)
Title: Re: Question on springer builds.....
Post by: WFO on September 05, 2017, 09:21:59 PM
from what Whipper told me all the stuff he took off and then all the stuff he added was only about 200 lbs more that the stock weight. I was surprised also after floating mine.
Title: Re: Question on springer builds.....
Post by: SARgo1 on September 09, 2017, 11:16:06 AM
ya know, it occurred to me that being a non steering axle, you don't really need a CV joint for a springer build.

Also, since it's all relatively low power (sub 30 hp engine, although skid steer is going to put some stress on it), it doesn't need to be overly robust.

I'm toying with the idea of using universal joints instead of the VW CV joint.

They can be had much less expensive and if you use a common one, can be sourced at nearly any parts store right off the shelf.

And since they are sealed (and grease-able) they wouldn't need boots like a CV, which can be vulnerable to tears/splits.

It's relatively low travel we're taking about (2-4" I'm estimating) so it's well within the operating range of a U-joint.

The only question would be the yokes, which I would probably end up making. Seems I could make the stub shafts with a yoke end, a center axle with yokes and then it would be a matter of figuring out a bearing yoke arrangement at the wheel end. The older 4x4 trucks used this arrangement at the wheel, although on a larger scale. Decent enough to use as a design concept though.


Any opinions (good or bad) on that idea?
Title: Re: Question on springer builds.....
Post by: WFO on September 09, 2017, 11:20:17 AM
yea you are right , if you have stock gearing and engines then all you really need is about 3 inches of travel at the most. you just want to smooth out the ride. iagree
Title: Re: Question on springer builds.....
Post by: WFO on September 09, 2017, 11:23:09 AM
years ago i was looking at P.T.O. shafts and joints with their type of yokes to do the job. BUT  whistling
Title: Re: Question on springer builds.....
Post by: ascaw on September 09, 2017, 11:45:57 AM
SARgo1,  you may want to consider over engineering it for the added weight of the gear you plan on having onboard and the added weight of the suspension.  Also it will help in the future when you decide you want some more HP, say 50 or so.  Easier to do it now rather than later.
Title: Re: Question on springer builds.....
Post by: whipperag on September 09, 2017, 12:39:32 PM
SARgo1,  you may want to consider over engineering it for the added weight of the gear you plan on having onboard and the added weight of the suspension.  Also it will help in the future when you decide you want some more HP, say 50 or so.  Easier to do it now rather than later.

Bingo, ascaw. you hit it right on the head. Over engineer it, you don't want to work on it all the time.
For a good independent suspension you have to have floating outer axles for the wheels to move
straight up and down through the travel of the wheels.
If you use u-joints you end up with the suspension of a VW swing axle.
The tires will fold up under you when you catch air or in a turn.
You also end up riding on the sides of your tires.
If you have to change a u-joint you'll have to take every thing apart to change one.
I have never had to change a CV joint in 10 yrs on any of our Springers.
That is why I use CV joints, but if I did have to change one this is how it is done.

https://vimeo.com/233117976
Title: Re: Question on springer builds.....
Post by: SARgo1 on September 09, 2017, 01:33:07 PM
SARgo1,  you may want to consider over engineering it for the added weight of the gear you plan on having onboard and the added weight of the suspension.  Also it will help in the future when you decide you want some more HP, say 50 or so.  Easier to do it now rather than later.

Bingo, ascaw. you hit it right on the head. Over engineer it, you don't want to work on it all the time.
For a good independent suspension you have to have floating outer axles for the wheels to move
straight up and down through the travel of the wheels.
If you use u-joints you end up with the suspension of a VW swing axle.
The tires will fold up under you when you catch air or in a turn.
You also end up riding on the sides of your tires.
If you have to change a u-joint you'll have to take every thing apart to change one.
I have never had to change a CV joint in 10 yrs on any of our Springers.
That is why I use CV joints, but if I did have to change one this is how it is done.

https://vimeo.com/233117976

Ah yes, you're right. I forgot about effective axle length change with suspension travel.

I've never had a VW cv joint in my hand. I'm assuming it uses some type of "plunging spline shaft" to account for axle length during articulation?

I know most vehicles just use and inner tripod joint to account for suspension action, but it doesn't look like this is how the VW units work.

I'm not looking to race the thing, just smooth out the ride and possibly get the outer hubs further away from the tub (and maybe tweek axle center spacing) to increase my tire options.

I do have a tendency to not be able to leave anything alone, building for more HP in the future might not be such a bad thing......;)
Title: Re: Question on springer builds.....
Post by: whipperag on September 09, 2017, 02:18:35 PM
The VW CV joints have about 1" of plunge, but I made custom axles to slide in and out of them.
And when assembled every thing is captured and can't come apart.



(http://6x6talk.com/gallery/7-080917224805.jpeg)
Title: Re: Question on springer builds.....
Post by: WFO on September 09, 2017, 03:54:03 PM
is that powder coated or just paint
Title: Re: Question on springer builds.....
Post by: whipperag on September 10, 2017, 11:18:41 AM
Powder coat
Title: Re: Question on springer builds.....
Post by: Sxenobladx on March 06, 2018, 04:16:33 AM
Again, we are successful in answering questions. And questions from you.