6x6Talk Forum

General Category => ARGO: Talk pertaining to Argo ATV => Topic started by: SARgo1 on September 03, 2017, 10:49:18 PM

Title: Project: ArgoCeptor!
Post by: SARgo1 on September 03, 2017, 10:49:18 PM
Edit: project renamed: ArgoCeptor due to working on swapping in a Honda V45 interceptor engine.

 Howdy. I'm new to Argo's and AATV's in general. Actually, I've only had one for a week or so now.

Some background;

I'm military, RCAF. I'm Search and rescue, flying the Cormorant Helo (flight engineer):

(http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/1118888/fullsize/5d84ce7feb4343ce83e23292f8a50ec4_zpsbade8261.jpg)

But after 28 years, I'm just too beaten up and broken to continue. It's a young man's game and I'm....errr.....not....anymore.

;)

Since I can't carry on, I'm being medically released from the military. No regrets. I've done and seen things most people will never even have a concept of. My pension and the medical release "parachute" is also pretty good.

But SAR isn't something you just " stop". It gets in the blood. That others may live isn't just an motto, it's a way of life. So even though I won't be Helo SAR, I'm planning to join the provincial Ground Search team once I'm out. It's all volunteer and poorly funded. As in, it's not.

My problem is my injuries mean I can't traverse uneven ground for very far. Not good for a ground search team member.

Enter: the Argo (SARgo? LOL!)

The Argo will be my legs.

I wanted an 8x8 for the size it offers over a 6x6 (carrying gear, searchers, casualties, etc), Argo because it's fairly mainstream for these rigs (get parts, accessories, etc without having to fire up the welder or lathe every time something breaks)  and tracks because Nova Scotia is somewhere around 50-75% rivers, lakes and bog/swamp/muck. That's also why a quad or side by side wouldn't be a great choice for me either, I need amphibious for SAR around here.

I looked at new and damned near had a stroke right then and there! 25-35 grand CAD! Nope,that's not going to happen. Sure was pretty though....

So it had to be used. But they're not common around these parts and just plain hard to come by used. Those do have 'em, aren't selling.

I got lucky and came across an 86 8x8. Came with windshield,  supertracks and a soft top. It's a Conquest, so hyd brakes and the old Kohler Magnum 18 hp. Gent wanted 4500 CAD:

(http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/1118886/fullsize/4.jpg)

(http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/1118885/fullsize/2.jpg)

(http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/1118887/fullsize/5.jpg)

It's used but not (particularly) abused.

Gent was a DNR guy so he took care of it as best he could for the 10 years he owned it. But he sure wasn't a mechanic. He had replaced one caliper and the lever was adjusted close up to the firewall. The other lever was a good 4-6" pull further to get it to grab. The carb was gummed up and it had to run with choke. The tires are some kind of knobby tire by Kenda, Dominator IIRC:

(http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/1119199/fullsize/21231612_1839392402745554_4475187036547337221_n.jpg)

The tracks were loose as....well, insert favorite curse word here. I also had to pull the wheels off each side to get the tracks off as the trailer was only 62" wide. It all made driving it on the trailer a fair bit of "fun".

No rear floor. Gent had a couple pieces of plywood in there. I wasn't worried about that as a couple welded spacers to the rear frame and a sheet of 1/8" 5052 aluminum (attached with Dzeus fasteners) would make a nice strong floor. Flat floor is preferred anyways as my wife trains tracking dogs and this will give them a good surface after I bond some rubber covering to it.

I pointed out a few things, hemmed and hawed a bit and then my missus played the "I don't want to buy this piece of junk" game. We ended up at 3 grand.

That's pretty good around these parts for a running, intact 8x8.

I took it directly to the cottage. First thing was a quick burn down the road. Ran like crap. Steered like crap. I goosed it wide open and it caught after a few seconds. No suspension and aired up tires (to squeeze it on the trailer) quickly became a bad combination on a few woops in the road. it took a bad bounce, things started to go really wrong really fast and I went for a handful of brakes. Well, one side grabbed first (still out of adjustment) and it jerked sideways, I then backed off the brakes trying to regain control and it all just made things even worse. We shot off into the trees and I ended up nose in against a big pine. I was laughing my head off, half happy I was still alive and half terrified of what just happened. Trip back to the cottage was decidedly slower and more cautious.

So, first off it was adjusting the brake/steering levers. I evened them out and steering became much easier and the whole rig became much more controllable as I didn't have to remember to pull one lever first when I wanted to stop. Then the carb came apart and got a good going through. Reinstalled and adjusted, the old Kohler now worked great. No more surging, responds to throttle. It's not perfect, but it's getting there.

Then I drove it down to the harbor. Yep, those tires don't swim worth a damn. Not a big surprise. They also make it a bear to turn on land, as the knobs just dig in and don't skid well at all. Gravel is ok, sod just gets ripped out and chunks go flying. I get it in deep enough to check wheel seals. Yup, most are leaking. Not a surprise and I expected it on a rig this old. But it's coming in damned fast up front somewhere. The skidplate (Argo's "second tub" arrangement) looks intact, but now I'm hoping the hull behind it is good and there's just a hub gasket gone really bad up front. Can't see exactly where it's coming in with the drivetrain installed. I'll have to check that out a little closer later. The "auto" bilge pump is dead, but the manual one he installed pumps it out and has no problems pumping the hull dry in a few seconds.

Back up to the yard and I degrease/clean the thing several times:

(http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/1119195/fullsize/21150341_1834123509939110_8394709580925628120_n.jpg)

(http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/1119196/fullsize/21151254_1834123479939113_6606829326355772739_n.jpg)

(http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/1119199/fullsize/21231612_1839392402745554_4475187036547337221_n.jpg)

and can now get a good look at double chains and sprockets (and the engine/transmission). Chains are stretched, but again, I expected that. Sprockets may be OK, have to get the chains off to know for sure. Looks like the idler sprockets are toast. Points on every tooth.

So, I've got some basic work to do. I expected most of it with a well used unit and nothing I can't handle. I ordered up some half links for the supertracks and that should (hopefully) take up the looseness. I took out one full link and it's too tight to get together, but it looks like a half link will be just about right to get my 3 odd inches of sag on the tracks from the 6-8" of sag there is now.

Once the maintenance is all addressed I'll be on to a SAR build up.

I'm looking at building racks, seats, pushbars and the like. I've got a 3500lb winch to install, which will be on a receiver type arrangement (connected to the frame winch bracket0 so I can use it front and rear. My Lincoln 180 will get a decent workout on all that stuff. Some will be aluminum, some will be steel. Smart use of each will keep the weight down. That's important for a SAR rig where lots of rescue/first aid gear goes in.

Of course, survival gear will be on board too. Military is good at making sure you know what to bring in the woods and how to use it.

;)

I'm also wanting to build it into a springer. I've got several reasons for that:

1. Looks like a fun project
2. It will be gentler to my beat up old bod
3. Looks to be fun to use when I just want to off road, and
4. when you've got someone with broken bones and such on board, you want the ride as smooth as possible.

Springer is a long range project though.

I'm not sure how well tracks will work with a springer though. Tracks is a must have and 4-6 feet of snow is common here in winter and it hangs around in the woods well into spring, sometimes summer.

Well, that's where it currently sits. More as I get into it.

:)
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: wedge on September 04, 2017, 09:55:57 AM
Great Intro on who you are what your into !  ;)
I am sure you will get all the help and info you will be needing rite here that's for sure.
Please keep us posted on you work as it looks like you have a good platform to build off of !  popcorn
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: SARgo1 on September 05, 2017, 09:34:12 PM
So it slowly gets better and better.

Someone had messed with the governer, so I reset that to factory.

With the idle cranked down, i was able to get a more accurate setting on the slow jet which has improved idle.

Came out the next morning and started it up and the idle and throttle went all weird. After a bit of sniffing around, i discovered the throttle cable had somehow cocked sideways and kinked inside the throttle housing. A little bending and reshaping put it back to a sericeable state. A good lube inside the housing and with my pressure cable lube attachement made everthing work better than before and idle/throttle was back to normal.

Tomorrow I'll pull the driver clutch off and see if shimming the spring will help with the drag at idle. The clutch opens fully at a stop, but closes up just a bit too much at any stage speed above stop. I'm thinking the spring has just fatigued a bit after 30 years. I'll replace it once I can source a new one.

I ordered a brace of green switches for the dash for accesories. Then a tach/hourmeter was ordered up.

Last thing was a call to the local john deer place to see if they stocked roller chain. They only had single, but could order double. 65 bucks plus tax for a 10' length. Not too bad. I could order cheaper online, but shipping pushes it up nearly twice the cost. I'll order up two at a time to spread the cost over a couple months, eventually replacing them all. First two will do the rear wheels, wich have the worst sag (chains hit the cross supports).

Also did some thinking. Im going to use 1 1/4 aluminum angle and 3" flat aluminum and weld up a channel to go around the whole rubber strip, bending and fitting as nessesary. The angle will go on the side and undeneath, the flat will go on top. This will give me the reinforcement for the tube and rub strip while also giving me a "mud lip"  that will cover the tires. I'll make it  in front, rear and side pieces and will be bolted through the rivet holes for the nody halves. That will make it solid, help with sag, be removeable and give me a base to build the front brush guard, rear carrying tray and attach the wider rear mudflaps.

:)
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: SARgo1 on September 07, 2017, 09:23:39 PM
Pulled the driver clutch apart today. Rusty and dry as a popcorn fart.

Sanded it down (not the sheaves, just the covers) and shot it with a coat of rustileum.

Everything got a good shot of brake clean and then the moving parts got a good graphite lube.

Then i spun out an 11/32 spacer for the clutch spring on the lathe.

Put the driver back together and popped it back on to the crankshaft.

Then i took the broken engine shrouds and hit them with the mig. Not the prettiest job, but its solid again.

Put the muffler and assorted other bits back on and fired it up.

Just about perfect!

Now the belt doesnt move at idle (or barely turns) and shifting is as smooth as you can expect on an argo box. Throttles up and grabs just fine.

Rest of the engine went back together and then it started funny throttle behavior as soon as i would put the air filter on. The throttl would hang when  blipped.  But it wouldnt hang if i lifted the air filter off. Chased my tail on that one a bit and finally discovered when i pushed down the filter, the throttle would hang. Turns out the governor arm was just rubbing on the bottom of the air cleaner housing. I went theough thoughts of clearancing the housing and machining up spacers, then i realized the governor arm is just stamped sheet metal. I gave it a few mm of downward bend and problem solved

I celebrated by buying a new brake duct. Mine is split, one end has ripped wide open and hanging. I also ordered an hourmeter that does tach, clock and programable maint reminders. Useful when an argo calls for maint at the 30 hr mark.

Im thinking if we're in to the new house this winter i may just strip it down to the frwme and do a complete overhaul. Have to wait and see on that one though. I'd do it at our current house but I don't have the garage space. Single car garage full of my tools, the mustang and two motorcycles just doesnt leave much room! :)

Getting there. Slowly, but surely.....
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: SARgo1 on September 08, 2017, 08:54:50 PM
Little more fiddling with the carb and throttle cable today. Runs slick now.

The clutch spacer is doing its job just fine. No drive at idle and trans shifts easy now, even with the idle turned up a touch to make it a touch smoother. There is just a little too much hesitation before drive engagement for my liking. Works fine, just a little delay. I may spin up a half sized spacer compared to the one in there now and see if it works a little better for me.

That all done, i started digging into the wiring. What a freaking mess! 

Once again, the PO was well meaning but he was no better an electrician than he was a mechanic. Wire splices, twisted together ends, butt connectors, wire taps, wires all over and taped over doubled up for length, and vinyl tape everywhere. Some spots that I took the tape apart, water actually ran out!

The automatic bildge pump he thought didnt work turned out to be a crap wiring job combined with hooking up the auto/manual switch wrong. I pulled the bildge pump out, opened it up, cleaned it out and tested it out on a battery. Worked perect. Turning to the switch assembly revealed incorrect wiring and the switch was wired to run a negative switch scheme. The pump didnt like that and none of thei indicator leds worked. I tore it apart and rewired it to switched positive and fixed the led indicators. Test run showed eveything working perfectly.

One of the old headlight/floodlights burned out. I dont think i'm going to bother replacing the lamp though. I'm just going to wait and replace them both with led units instead. When I get around to that, I'll prob toss on a couple red led tail lights as well since it doesnt have any at all right now and you he d them to run after dark here on the trails.

Tomorrow, i'll look at redoing the entire under hood/ dash wiring. I'm going to swap all the crap/corroded barrel connectors for delphi weather tight connectors and probably do a few things like add a power distribution block/busbar. I plan to add a fuse box also and the only things i can see that even remotely look like fuses are a couple in line glass fuse holders. I can do much better than that.

I am also supposed to get a decent back pay check in the next month or two. Should be enough to buy a new set of tires that will swim. Maybe enough for the chains and a few other bits as well.

:)
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: wedge on September 08, 2017, 08:59:30 PM
One step at a time Brother !!
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: SARgo1 on September 10, 2017, 11:05:14 AM
So I'm trying to decide which outboard to mount ont eh back.

I've got a 2hp Johnson and an 8 hp Johnson. Both at 2 strokes.

The 2hp weights about 30-35 lbs and has an integrated fuel tank. I run it all day long on a tank using it as a trolling motor on my 12 foot tinny. Even flat out, it's not really what I would call a "powerhouse". It gets my 12 footer moving pretty good, but nothing near plane. But I've recently rebuilt it and converted to solid state ignition so it's damned near a stone axe as far as reliability goes.

The 8 hp is closer to 60 lbs. It needs and external tank. for an 8hp it's fairly impressive. Digs my 12 footer out of the hole and on plane in nothing flat. On plane, it gets the tinny really flying. The 8 HP is solid a s a rock too. Runs on first pull ever time and has never even missed a beat.

The argo is never going to plane, duh right?

:)

I'm trying to decide if double the weight (8hp +tank) is worth it. The argo is only ever going to move so fast, under 5 mph I'm figuring at best due to the tire drag. plus, there's the inconvenience of having to drag around a separate fuel tank with the 8hp.

Neither are long shaft motors. But I'm planning a scissoring mount to get it nice and low.

Opinions?

I won't be getting them out on the water any time soon so I can't give 'em both a try right now. The Argo is torn apart to rectify the PO's electrical sins and upgrade the wiring.
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: wedge on September 10, 2017, 11:08:29 AM
The Bigger the better for speed and moving around Plus the Argo's Float Nose Down due to the engine being up front so you will not have a problem of it sitting Rear down. It may work better as it will flatten the whole rig out !?!?
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: SARgo1 on September 10, 2017, 11:15:21 AM
The Bigger the better for speed and moving around Plus the Argo's Float Nose Down due to the engine being up front so you will not have a problem of it sitting Rear down. It may work better as it will flatten the whole rig out !?!?

I was actually thinking about argo's sitting nose down int he water and believe it's probably better for the rig when swimming on the tires. Figure most of the drive is coming from the rear tires since they are further out. With them further out, they're not digging on the "up stroke" which works against forward thrust.

But with an outboard, all bets are off. More weight on the rear means more tire drag, but it may allow the hul to slip through the water easier. I'm thinking more drag is worse than any hydrodynamic advantage of sitting further down in the rear.

It may also be that more HP means more prop speed, which means more cavitation behind the argo in it's disturbed flow.

Maybe I'll just have to wait to get it in the water next year to find out....
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: SARgo1 on September 10, 2017, 11:36:34 AM
Hmmm, 2hp seems to do reasonably well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7fb-Yzpo-k

Not going to win any races, but an Argo is not exactly a drag boat either.

Unless you mean a "high drag boat"!

LOL!
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: SARgo1 on September 10, 2017, 11:38:26 AM
5hp seems distinctly more "sprightly":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmQYn5b2pFw

Maybe the 8Hp is the way to go.....
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: wedge on September 10, 2017, 12:04:15 PM
Those Vids will sure point you in the rite direction.
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: SARgo1 on September 10, 2017, 09:26:35 PM
Not a lot done today, but some.

Continued to rip out the PO wiring debacle. Looking much cleaner under hood now.

Installed the weatherpack connector on the bilge pumps. I wired the automatic pump to the automatic switch and then wired the manual switch to the manual side of the auto pump and put the second pump on the same switch. Reasoning being: if I'm hitting the manual pump (as long ats the float switch hasn't conked out on auto) it's probably a bad situation and I want all pumps going as hard as possible!

I also had to repair some of the engine wiring. Someone had two splices and two butt connectors on the rectifier charge wire. They also had a butt connector and a splice on the engine kill wire. All of it points for failure and increased resistance due to bad/corroded connections.  So I clipped back to good wire, soldered and heat shrunk new pieces of the same gauge wire and then used a 20A weatherpack connector on them. Left decent slack for vibration and strain relief.

still moving slow, but getting stronger every day!

:)
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: wedge on September 11, 2017, 07:53:34 PM
It take time but just look at what you have when you step back and ponder !!
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: SARgo1 on September 12, 2017, 10:16:12 PM
Alrighty, pretty sure i have the dash layout.

To the right (left to right) of the levers will be choke, key and 10 arb styke switches. Switches will be things like headliaghts, winch, tail lights, L/R/Rear/Front floods, brake blower, etc.

To the left (right to left) will be the bilge pump switch panel, the combination gauge (hour/tach/clock/volt etc) and then a panel to hold a dedicated voltmeter/sual usb charger and a regular 12V socket.

All green backlit of course.

I'm thinking of mounting a gps right behind the kevers and slightly above on the dash. What that will be exactly i havent decided. Hand held gps or some type of tablet (7" perhaps) with an app. The tablet seems the more attractive of the two becuase it can do other things. A handheld will be water tight though. Have to think about it more...

So it should look good and be functional too.

:)

Had to "pause" on the rewiring. I had to order more delphi connectors with the right number of pins in them. Not a big deal. Gives me time to put more thought into how i want to build the main harness and if i want to leave some extra "room" for future additions....
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: SARgo1 on September 14, 2017, 06:51:42 PM
Auugghhhh! My eyes! My eyes! I'm blind! I'm blind!

(http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/1120104/fullsize/img_6374.jpg)

Hey, I can see again! But everything looks funny now:

(http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/1120103/fullsize/img_6373.jpg)


27 watt led lights. 45 watts total. 3 amp draw total. Pretty good! Powered them up in the dark garage and they actually throw some pretty serious light. Its not going to get out hundreds of feet, but the argo is going to be slow speed driving and tops out at 18-20 mph anyways.

and the dash layout from left to right: power port panel, tacho/hourmeter, bilge pump panel, choke knob, ign cylinder and a brace of 10 "arb style" switches.

(http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/1120105/fullsize/img_6376.jpg)

All green backlit.

Should be pretty cool.
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: Model Citizen on September 14, 2017, 07:38:22 PM
Wow, that came out really, really nice, even though I had to cock my head 90 degrees to look at it.  ;D
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: SARgo1 on September 14, 2017, 07:52:58 PM
Yeah, I know. I think its an iphone thing and supermotors doesnt have a way for you rotate it.

The lights are actually just sitting there for now. This weekend im going to cut the holes to fit and set them into the body.
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: wedge on September 14, 2017, 08:21:33 PM
Try and Rotate the pcs in your settings. Look Great but I feel like a Parrott !  rofl
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: WFO on September 14, 2017, 08:48:38 PM
HAHAHAHAHAHAH that was funny
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: wedge on September 14, 2017, 08:54:49 PM
Funny for You WFO ! But I almost spilled My Beer !!  rofl
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: SARgo1 on September 14, 2017, 08:58:53 PM
Try and Rotate the pcs in your settings. Look Great but I feel like a Parrott !  rofl

Don't know where "settings" is. You mean on supermotors?  They're right side up on supermotors. It's just an image link here...
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: wedge on September 14, 2017, 09:05:52 PM
here ya go
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: wedge on September 14, 2017, 09:08:50 PM
and
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: wedge on September 14, 2017, 09:09:38 PM
There we go ! Now I won't spill my Beer looking at it   hilarious
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: SARgo1 on September 17, 2017, 06:41:56 AM
Mounted in the body and slaved to a temporary battery (waiting for more delphi connectors to arrive):

(http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/1120334/fullsize/img_6399.jpg)

(http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/1120337/fullsize/img_6403.jpg)

The last pic looks like its looking down because it is. I had to hold the phone up over my head. Any lower and the lights are blinding and just wash everything out. Its actually hard to look at them, they actually are that bright!

I had to square out the body holes, cut the mounting boss off the lights and drill/tap holes in the rear of the housing to attach body mounting brackets (the place for the bolts was there, just not drilled).

Lights off:

(http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/1120335/fullsize/img_6401.jpg)

Lights on:

(http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/1120336/fullsize/img_6402.jpg)

In darkness:

(http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/1120338/fullsize/img_6405.jpg)

Night pic is a little deceptive because of the tree/bush to the immediate front. The big pines behind it were all lit up, but just doesn't show in the pics.

Right around 27!watts each and under 3 amps total to run both.

Pretty good for 26 bucks!

Edit: supermotors seems determined to post pics side ways no matter what I do! Lol! Its an iphone thing from what i can figure...!

I also took the drive clutch apart again and spun up a 0.0781 spring spacer on the lathe to replace the 0.156 spacer. Now its just about perfect. No crunch or walking away shifting at idle, tiny bit of flare before drive to get the rpms up for good pull away.
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: ascaw on September 17, 2017, 08:28:00 AM
Those lights look like they will be great for night ops.
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: wedge on September 17, 2017, 09:51:58 AM
The Plus side is the Very low AMP draw !
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: SARgo1 on September 17, 2017, 07:31:27 PM
Yep, low draw was a lot of the reason i'm going led everywhere. Leds have come a long way lately and now bright white is cheap and effective in an led lamp.

The argo is going to get an alternator also so i can run pretty mich everthing i want. Im going to need it if night searching as there will be lights front, sides and rear when rumbling down the trail or through the bush. It will be more about being seen by the Search object than seeing the search object. Infind the only things effective for a non-cooperative target at night is FLIR, night vision search or nightsun sewrchlight. In that order of effectiveness. Naked eye in the dark or white light is literally a "shot in the dark" if you find them or not.

All the same, i'll probably carry a couple hand held spots that will run off the 12v plug or maybe mount one or two on the cage somewhere that can be passenger controlled.
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: Model Citizen on September 17, 2017, 07:42:18 PM
Nice job. I like the way you anticipate what you will need & how to make it happen.
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: SARgo1 on September 17, 2017, 07:46:59 PM
Finished off today making the rear floor template:

(http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/1120350/fullsize/img_6407.jpg)

Transferred it over to the 1/8" aluminum sheet. Will cut it out tomorrow and probably take it to work where i can bend a lip on the forward edge so stuff doesn't drop off the front of the floor and down into the chain cavities. The floor is going to be secured to the rails with dzeus fasteners, but a nice wide lip will also protect the fuel tank in case it does happen to come in contact with the aluminum floor.
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: wedge on September 17, 2017, 07:51:11 PM
Nice work my friend !
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: WFO on September 17, 2017, 07:54:43 PM
thats a job for a water jet.
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: SARgo1 on September 17, 2017, 08:02:23 PM
Sorry to say i dont have one handy. Wish i did.

The big shear at work, Jig saw and belt sander will have to do....
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: wedge on September 17, 2017, 08:33:51 PM
Hand made is the way to GO ! >:D
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: SARgo1 on September 18, 2017, 05:25:34 PM
Floor:

(http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/1120377/fullsize/img_6408.jpg)

Pretty close to final shape. I need to belt sand it down a touch here and there, weld the supports to the Argo frame, install the dzeus fasteners and make a hatch door over both body drain plugs.

Its solid enough that i can walk around on it with my 225 lbs. Very tiny bit of deflection, which i will handle by riveting a cross brace to the underside of the floor.

Some tie down rigs will double as something to grab to lift the floor out when needed.

Im a little back and forth on bonding some thin rubber matting to it or using some of the foam matting (looks like gray diamond plate).
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: wedge on September 18, 2017, 05:54:26 PM
That looks good !
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: WFO on September 18, 2017, 06:02:45 PM
good job . you made quick work of that  8)
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: SARgo1 on September 19, 2017, 05:31:57 AM
New spool gun showed up today.

 dance

Now to get a bottle of 100% argon and start practicing my aluminum welding.

Toying with the idea of ditching the steel Argo frame and building one out of aluminum. I'm building all the racks and whatnot out of aluminum (for weight consideration and I just like working with aluminum) so it's not a big leap to do a frame too. Give me a chance to stiffen the old rig up. The floor piece is dented and rusty and the whole thing twists and wanders like a drunken sailor over anything even resembling uneven ground. It's eventually going to be a Springer, so stiffer frame the better IMHO. The suspension will do the work of keeping tire in contact with the ground, not a twisting frame and tub.

I'll have to check with my supplier to see what dimensions are available for channel and such.

Be good to also refine my welding skills. Racks first (ie: practice on non-structural)  then stuff like frame, winch support, etc.be totally worth it to me even if I only see something like 20 lbs. That's another 20 lbs of first aid or rescue kit I can load on or another 20 lbs that can go towards mitigating the extra weight for the Springer suspension...

;)
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: Craig_B on October 05, 2017, 09:32:53 AM
Awesome looking project!! And well done.

Looking forward to seeing how all this progresses.

Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: SARgo1 on October 08, 2017, 04:50:12 AM
So ive been needing a trailer to haul the Argo. But like most guys, I don't want to spend any more than I have too.

Problem was; I wanted a trailer big enough to take the Argo with supertracks, which means a minimum of 72" wide. Those size trailers are a little harder to find used and just don't come cheap when you do.

I've been watching the local buy and sell and there was a beat up looking old home built that was 6'4"x10'6". But it looked like poo and he wanted 400 bucks.

(https://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NDgwWDgwMA==/z/9-0AAOSw9EJZtyHp/$_59.JPG)

(https://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NDgwWDgwMA==/z/dzAAAOSwJb5ZtyIF/$_59.JPG)

(https://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NDgwWDgwMA==/z/kV8AAOSwCCVZtyIV/$_59.JPG)

 I thought about looking at it once or twice but it just looked so bad in the pictures I couldn't be bothered.

As fate would have it, I actually drove by it yesterday when I was headed somewhere. I stopped to have a look just because I was there anyways.

Well, it still looked like crap. But under the crap looks, it was actually pretty heavily built and in decent shape. There was something I couldn't put my finger on about it, but it was big enough and certainly a good base to build on.

The for sale sign also had 400 crossed out and 300 written in.

So I called the guy and we got to talking. Ended up paying 250 bucks and hooking it up. Tows straight and true. No bounce and the truck doesn't even know it's three.

I get it home and get a more in depth look at it. It had hydraulic surge brakes on it at one time, but the master cylinder is long gone. That seems strange to me on a home built utility trailer, but I dismiss it as someone used what they had lying around. The tires are new 12" Carlisle's on 5 bolt rims. The frame is thick and the sides are not c channel, but rather look like a box section that isn't a complete box. It takes a 2 inch ball and the A frame is very heavy. 3500 lb axle with surge brakes. Theres some kind of bracket in each corner under the soft and rotting floor. There's strange little posts on the front and rear frame that angle up so they're not tie down points.

Then it hits  me what I'm actually looking at: it's a converted camper trailer and a fairly big one at that. I'm guessing it's an old "Bonair" from about the 70's as  the seller told me he bought it off a guy who used it to haul his stuff down from Montreal. Couple things also have "made in Quebec" stamped in them (ie: plastic wheel wells).  That's why the welds look so good and it's fairly heavily built; only the registration is "home built", the base trailer frame is production built.. Certainly heavy enough to drag my Argo or a motorcycle or two around. 10'+ will be nice for hauling lumber from the yard as my truck only has a 6.5' bed (biggest I could get on an f150 crew cab).

So, plans are to strip it down to the frame and blast it clean. Drop tail added and axle flip to make a nice deck over utility trailer. Drop gate at the rear and I'll build platforms over each wheel well for the Argo to sit on. A bit more steel and probably 2x6 pressure treated boards. Two raised platforms will give me some storage on the trailer for some long but low items as well as wheel clearance.

Plan is to end up with something like this:

(http://distillery-trailercentral.s3.amazonaws.com/rd1qmq/O8r23Y/2017_Longhorn_Trailers_77x14_Single_Axle_Utility_Trailer_w_2ft_Dovetail__2ft_Ramp_Gate_eOLlWC.jpg)

(https://sleequipment.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/a/r/argodovetailpc220037_1_1.jpg)

but in a deck over configuration.

Should be fun. Pics as it develops. Only in to it for 250 right now (and I could use it as is) so that's good!

:)
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: wedge on October 08, 2017, 10:22:14 AM
Well you have a good base to start your build. Just remember everything you add will add up in Weight.
The wood floor planking is Heavy so you may want to look and that also.
I would also see if you could put bigger wheels and tires on it.
Let us know how you make out on it.  popcorn
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: SARgo1 on October 08, 2017, 10:29:10 AM
Tear down time.

Its three layers of various  thickness of plywood in various stages of decay:

(http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/1121385/fullsize/img_6590.jpg)

That pic is the last layer and is the orginal 1970-1980 era plywood. Still has the holes for power and water lines in it. Soft as puddin'! All the previous owners just keep slapping another thin layer of plywood over the previous as it went soft. Not the way to do it! All i had to do to get the layers off was grab and edge and pull, the screws pulled right out of thier underlayers with nearly no resistance.

Once stripped, over all, not in bad shape:

(http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/1121386/fullsize/img_6591.jpg)

A little cleaning and some rust paint and it'll be good as new.

Only bad piece is the very last rail:

(http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/1121387/fullsize/img_6592.jpg)

Not a big deal. Cut it out, weld in new. I was going to build a dove tail anyways so its minimal extra work to replace the bad rail.

Figure I'll raise it about 6 inches to make a clean, flat deckover:

(http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/1121388/fullsize/img_6594.jpg)

Dove tail will work nicely with the raise. I'll just make the tail a 3-4" drop. That will still add at least 2" of clearance from what it is now. The ball center comes up just enough to make it a perfect hieght for a standard hitch drop.

I was thinking an axle flip, but I think I'll just cut the spring mounts off and weld a spacer to the frame member:

(http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/1121389/fullsize/img_6595.jpg)

Then weld the spring mounts back on. Seems to be the cleanest way to go and maintains the orginal spring action.

I may just carry the spacer from front rail to the rear and weld at the cross beams along the way. Good way to add some strength and rigidityto the chassis while accomplishing the lift. Might slide the axle back a couple inches as well to get a bit more tongue weight since its no longer a camper and will be hauling stuff instead.

I also may end up doubling up the outside rails. Not so much for strength, but so i can add a c channel to take the deck boards. Added strength will just be an incidental bonus.

:)
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: SARgo1 on October 08, 2017, 10:33:38 AM
Well you have a good base to start your build. Just remember everything you add will add up in Weight.
The wood floor planking is Heavy so you may want to look and that also.
I would also see if you could put bigger wheels and tires on it.
Let us know how you make out on it.  popcorn

Not really worried about weight. I'll build for function first and rejig for more capacity later if needed.

i'll just up to heavier springs and reinforce the frame if i get to find it becomes too heavy. Planning to swap on electric brakes in the near future as well.
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: SARgo1 on October 08, 2017, 03:40:35 PM
So, further measuring reveals i need a deck height of 22.5" to clear the tires and 3" of suspension movement.

I highly doubt it will move 3", but you never know. The camper springs are actually pretty soft, most likely so the dishes and pots in a camper dont get thrown around too much. I'll give them a go and if they are too soft I'll just replace them with something more robust.

Plan is to pit two 10' 2x3 metal tubes from the a frame to the rear rail. This will transfer all the load to the pulling frame and stiffen the whole thing up immeasurably.

Then a simple 2x2 piece to space the spring mounts down the total 5" i need to raise the deck to the priper height.

A 16" dove tail will bring the rear lift up to about 10" and the drop gate will make the rest if the ramp into the bed.

10 foot 2x6's will make the deck. That will give me the option of carrying the Argo, or bolting down one or two motorcycle chocks and ferrying my  bikes around. Anything else it will handle fine with the 2x6 deck boards.

The 12" tires and rims will have to stay or the trailer will just get too high for my liking. Possibly might be able to go up to a 13" if the suspension is stiff enough of if i install some bump stops.

:)
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: SARgo1 on October 09, 2017, 08:41:17 AM
Well crap on a cracker!

Measured the axle. Just a hair under 2" diameter. a little over 2 7/8". That means its's a 2000 lb axle.

Oh well, it will do for now and I'll shop for a good deal for a proper 3500 lb axle with electric brakes. Likely upgrade to 13" or 14" tires as well while I'm at it.

This one is bent anyways, lots of negative camber. Likely overloaded as a utility trailer by a PO. If it had of been a 3500 lb axle, I might have straightened it, but no point in that now.

I'm still money ahead even if I buy a new axle. There's more than $250 worth of steel and stuff like coupler, etc in the thing as it is.

Probably have somewhere around $500-600 in to it when I'm done. Still way better than anything you will find used for a 6.5' x 10.5' flat deck ATV hauler around these parts....
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: SARgo1 on October 11, 2017, 05:15:39 PM
Add two lengths of 2x4" tube:

(http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/1121546/fullsize/img_6617.jpg)

Et voila! Deckover utility trailer:

(http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/1121547/fullsize/img_6618.jpg)

The new pieces have a little "stand off" from the original spring mount piece because the cross rails they are welded to aren't flush with them. Rather than notch the crossmembers, i just welded the ends of the 2x4 tube to them and accepted the space between the 2x4 and 2x3 pieces. To compensate, i'm going to amke a couple 3x3 plates and weld 2 per side across the gap. Kind of like a "fishplate". There will also be a support welded between the 2x4 tubes to make sure it all stay nice and rigidly in place.

I moved the axle back to the 60% postion. The orginal camper trailer had the axle dead center of the deck. I figure they had it centered due to the way the camper had the deck loaded with its components, putting the 10% tongue load on the hitch. Or maybe it was to account for the battery and propane tanks on the A frame. Meh, dunno. Utility trailers arent built that way, so i moved the axle back to a conventional postion for a utility trailer.

The deck will be 2x6 wood. Probably just local spruce. A piece of 1.5" angle will be welded to the top of the frame rails and that will form the channel for the wood to sit in.

Beavertail rear piece will follow later down the road. Im just getting it functional for now since we're moving to a new house in march 2018.

I'm going to swap the spring with my 12' aluminum boat trailer springs. The camper ones are 3 leaves and the boat springs are 4 leaves. The boat trailer is so stiff it doesnt give at all and the trailer just jumps around. Swapping springs over to the argo trailer just makes sense.

Next is to weld on some spring perches as i currently just turned the axle over to do the axle under spring flip.

Deck, some cleankng and painting and i can at least move the argo around.

Still not in to it for more than 300 bucks!

:)
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: SARgo1 on October 12, 2017, 08:43:30 PM
I'm beginning to thing I'm just going to give building a beavertail a pass.

Instead of the beavertail, I think I'm going to build a folding rear gate so it can be nice and long to ease loading and fold over to minimize the wind resistance.

Something along these lines:

(http://midsotamfg.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Midsota-UT-Bi-Fold-Gate-1.jpg)

Probably a touch taller than that since mine is a deck over. Not taller than the argo si going to be for sure.

I've had full height trailer gates before and you can really feel them back there. Just too much drag for my liking.
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: SARgo1 on October 14, 2017, 10:15:53 PM
More welding today. Put in a few more cross braces and added a 16" beavertail. It's not overly long, but it makes for a nice reduced breakover when used with my 6 foot ramps.
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: SARgo1 on October 17, 2017, 05:28:15 PM
Started decking the trailer out:

(http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/1122276/fullsize/img_6636.jpg)

(http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/1122277/fullsize/img_6635.jpg)

That's just cut and fit. Not bolted down yet. I have to clean and paint the frame before I bolt the deck down and I still have some welding to do before paint as well.

Probably going to stain it walnut or something like that.
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: wedge on October 17, 2017, 06:13:15 PM
Looks like it should turn out to e a good trailer .
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: SARgo1 on October 17, 2017, 06:43:23 PM
I didn't realize just how big it was going to be until i got a deck on there.  I knew the measurements were 6 1/2 feet by nearly 11 feet, but the deck really made it fill out.

Its just right for my argo though, as its 72" wide with the supertracks. That gives me 6" of play for when I'm driving the argo up on to the trailer.

:)
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: ascaw on October 17, 2017, 07:09:12 PM
Looking good.  6" gives you 3" per side, that's plenty of room for a tight squeeze.    :o
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: Model Citizen on October 17, 2017, 07:31:00 PM
You're doing a very nice job. :)
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: SARgo1 on October 22, 2017, 04:41:47 PM
Little bit of work done today on the dash layout:

(http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/1122470/fullsize/img_6644.jpg)

One the left side is a 12v port, a double usb port, and a voltmeter. Next to that is the hour meter/rpm/maintenance minder. Finishing off the left is the bildge pump panel that was already in the argo when i bought it:

(http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/1122471/fullsize/img_6649.jpg)

On the right is a brace of switches and the ignition key cylinder:

(http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/1122472/fullsize/img_6645.jpg)

Well, at least its all in and mounted. Now is just to wire it all. Easy peasy, right?

;)

Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: wedge on October 22, 2017, 04:44:40 PM
How is the trailer coming along ?
Last time I looked you was on a roll !
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: SARgo1 on October 22, 2017, 04:48:31 PM
Still coming along. More welding in progress.
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: wedge on October 22, 2017, 04:56:35 PM
It all takes time my friend. Keep up the Good work !  ;)
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: Model Citizen on October 22, 2017, 06:29:04 PM
. Keep up the Good work !  ;)

DITTO!
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: SARgo1 on October 25, 2017, 03:49:27 PM
Thompsons water seal with semi clear cedar tint:

(http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/1122590/fullsize/img_6658.jpg)

Picked up the steel yesterday to finish it all, including a bi-fold loading gate.  That was another 280 bucks.

So, if I've got it all tallied right in my head, I'm around 680-700 bucks in to it all told.

Now i just need to find time to get to it to finish it....
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: ascaw on October 25, 2017, 05:00:47 PM
That looks nice.  A lot better than when you got it.  Don't make it too nice or you won't want to use it.    ;D
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: SARgo1 on October 27, 2017, 08:59:09 PM
Well, that was a royal frickin' waste of money!

The Thompsons went on and 24 hours later the wood is turning gray at an exponential rate! Water doesn't bead except a few areas, others it just turns white when it rains.

What a crap product! Doesn't protect worth a shite! First time I've ever used it. Last time too!

Read the side of the bottle again and it appears to be mostly just solvent and paraffin. So ti is going to be a major biotch to get it off. Wax sunk into the wood doesn't exactly just melt off.

So, rathetr than strip or sand I think I'm just going to run all the boards through the planer and take a 32nd or 16th off the face.

Then I'm just going to use a good deck stain on it. Maybe a solid instead of a semi.....
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: WFO on October 27, 2017, 09:16:16 PM
i use linseed oil and turpentine 2 to 1, the turpentine draws the oil into the wood. use a 1 gal pressurized bottle. get the bottle at home depot
twice a year or so
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: SARgo1 on October 29, 2017, 05:25:11 PM
Ran the planks through the planer and got that thimpsons crap off. Had to anyways to bring them down about 3/8 to fit the 1.5 angle. Restained in a solid walnut. Got most of the gate finished also:

(http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/1122754/fullsize/img_6677.jpg)

(http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/1122753/fullsize/img_6675.jpg)

(http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/1122755/fullsize/img_6679.jpg)

That gate is a heavy sumbitch! I'll have to rig up a spring gate assist or my already bad back is going to get worse!

Also welded the rear loading jacks on. Still too short, i need to extend the lower part of the leg about 3-4 inches.
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: SARgo1 on November 05, 2017, 04:19:25 PM
Almost 7 feet long and just over 200 lbs:

https://youtu.be/_Ra8A9V0g9A

Easy peasy!

You can see where it is just a touch hard to control when it folds, so I have some 24" gas struts on the way to take the weight of the folding part.

:)
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: ascaw on November 05, 2017, 04:55:02 PM
Your trailer is coming right along.  Nice work.  :)
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: wedge on November 05, 2017, 06:39:44 PM
I Like it ! Nice work buddy  ;)
Plus 200 lbs is not that heavy at all. 
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: SARgo1 on November 06, 2017, 04:50:11 AM
I Like it ! Nice work buddy  ;)
Plus 200 lbs is not that heavy at all.

200lbs is pretty heavy when you have to live with a ruptured disc....but the spring lift assist makes it easy peasy.

My back is only going to get worse as i get older, so the spring assist is "future proofing" as much as anything else.

Also started ordering shocks for the springer build. Need 8, but only ordered my first 4. Not a cheap endeavor...lol!

:)
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: wedge on November 06, 2017, 05:53:44 PM
Ok Now I got ya ! The Gate it self is 200 lbs . Yea that is a Heavy Gate !
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: SARgo1 on November 09, 2017, 06:19:09 PM
Scored 4 more shocks. That's 8 total.

Theyre all from a Honda Foreman. Although one set is from a 500, the other is from a 350. 6 of them are fixed, two are adjustable for preload.

Now to work out the axles/wheel bearings and something that won't break the bank.

I've been looking at car stuff, but it all looks just way too heavy.

The rest of the suspension components arent a big deal to fabricate. Just some work on the lathe and a couple hours with the mig.

Getting the geometry right, well...that's  a different story.....

And at the end of all this work, the damned thing looks like it might end up juuuuust a smidge too wide for the trailer when wearing the supertracks.

That will leave me with either taking the tracks on and off everytime I have to trailer it or widening the trailer a couple inches. If I'm in the ball park, it look like simply taking the upper rail and posts off the trailer and welding them on the outside of the frame rails (instead of on top of them as it is now) will make it all wide enough.

of course, widening the rail will mean I'll have to rework the spring assist as well.

Ugh! It never ends....
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: wedge on November 09, 2017, 06:36:03 PM
Yes it Never ends !  popcorn
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: SARgo1 on November 10, 2017, 09:56:09 PM
Well, the heck with it.

I'm just going to get it over with. Chop the rail off and reweld it to the outside of the frame rails.

That will give me and additional 3" of useable deck width.

If that ends up not being enough for a springer, then so be it...
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: wedge on November 10, 2017, 09:59:11 PM
You never know till you try ?
At least with a Flat Deck you can haul anything !  ;)
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: SARgo1 on November 12, 2017, 06:37:05 AM
So i was thinking how it was going to look with the stantions for the rail on the outside of the farme.

Sucky, and possible snagging points.

Then it came to me: I'll put a piece of flatstock down the length of the trailer on each side.

That will give me a rub strip and tie down points the lentgh of the trailer.

:)
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: wedge on November 12, 2017, 09:09:25 AM
As your seeing it is always good to Step back and look at your options !
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: ascaw on November 12, 2017, 10:53:55 AM
You can never have enough tie down points.
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: wedge on November 12, 2017, 11:07:52 AM
I put E,Track down both side's of my trailer. With those straps and tie down points it works with anything I want to put on it .
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: SARgo1 on November 16, 2017, 09:11:07 AM
Scored a couple trx500 front drive axles for super cheap. Even if they dont work, its something to start prototyping with for the suspension.
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: SARgo1 on November 17, 2017, 11:42:43 AM
So, I've gotten a lot of parts super cheap lately.

Honda TRX500 stuff, Bombardier Quest complete front end (guy wrecked one and just sawsall's the front frame off) and some yamaha grizzy 660 front end stuff.

It's all in under 150 bucks (some if it was free, a "just get it out of the yard" type deal).

So I'm looking at pulling out all the CV axles and hubs. This will be my driveshafts and wheel mounts. The a arms I'll build, as I will the spindle/bearing carriers.

It will be a little bit of a "junkyard dog" with several different types of axles, but I'm ok with that for the price I'm getting them for.

And if it doesn't work out, I'm not out a lot of money.

Side bonus is they should be all parts that can be replaced with off the shelf stuff with fairly minimal modifications.

I'm considering leaving the axle shafts the stock lengths, although I will no doubt have to adjust some of them so they are all at least the same length as the others. It will make the whole rig pretty wide, but I'm not so upset at that thought. It's a lot of logging and fire roads around here. A wider rig is a more stable rig and that can't hurt if using it for SAR and hauling people and casualties around and it's still going to be much smaller than a 4x4 truck so it will be able to squirrel into a lot of small places. Maybe not the places a single quad can go, but again, I'm not too concerned abou that.

I'm going to go with 12" rims and 25" tires. Easy to find them in stores and I'm not concerned with the argo having to be higher to fit them. Making 4 of them fit on each side won't be  big problem, but I will have to kick out the wheelbase a bit. Not enough room between axle centers to fit 25's when it was built for 20/22's. Not a bit deal, I'll just offset the suspensions a bit from the axle centers. Probably shift the front wheel forward, the second set will stay centered, the third will be set back same amount as the front and the rear set back the most. Front and third will only have to shift (looks like) an inch or two, rear 2-4 inches maybe. Not a big deal since I'm going to be running CV shafts and no steering.

More ground clearance and I was already planning a retractable "boarding step" arrangement. Hard enough for me to drag my broken old arse into the argo as it is, needed a better way to get in anyways. Thinking the "steps" will be built into a rear cargo tray and walk from back to the front seats.

Front seats will have fold down rear backs to make stepping forward easier. The whole front seat arrangement is going to be fairly customized anyways. Idea in my head almost looks like the new "huntmaster" seats. Easy to plan for it from the beginning.

Tracks will require a little more thought. Getting the length is as simple as adding links. But now I'm thinking of building manual locking hubs for the middle set of wheels. Same idea as "track tuners", just built to fit my particular custom rig. That might be a bigger mountain to climb than I want and it's a long term plan at best.

Have "sort of" idea for roll over/racks. Found it on a gents web site. Aluminum and light enough not to add a lot of weight up high, has a built in ladder to climb it for better sighting and looks to be able to provide decent roll over protection for all the occupants. Mine will not be built exactly the same, but lots of good ideas there.

And every time I go out to the storage shed, I see my old VF750F interceptor that I haven't ridden in about 8 years (I have a couple other bikes) and can't stop myself from thinking about what it would take to get that "big old" V4 in to my old Argo!

sure; I'd loose the centrifugal clutch arrangement, but I would gain a regular handlebar clutch and multiple gear choices for use in both the Argo high and low.

And from waht I can find, the old Magnum 18 HP isn't a whole lot lighter than the VF750 lump. Around 50 lbs or so.

Hmmm.......100 mph Argo anyone?

Yipe!

;) 

Weight is going to be my biggest enemy here, especially if I want it to still be able to float....
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: SARgo1 on November 17, 2017, 06:05:37 PM
So i was sitting here mulling over the changes to my Argo in my head.


I was thinking about seating arrangements and then it hit me: why not move the fuel tank to the very rear of the compartment and do seating something like these:

(http://www.argoadventure.com/assets/images/Argo%20Parts%20Images/849-90-4.jpg)

(https://sc02.alicdn.com/kf/HTB11i2YJFXXXXXYaXXXq6xXFXXXD/XBH-8X8-2-ATV-Rear-Seat.jpg)

I was also thinking of moving hte battery to the rear and using a bigger batt.

It's not a hunting rig, nor will it haul 1000lb of crap, so I don't need the cargo space. It's going to be a people/dog hauler at best.

Having the fuel and battery back there would help balance out the weight in the rig a bit better.
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: SARgo1 on November 17, 2017, 08:28:18 PM
Bah!

Went to pick up the grizzly parts (free stuff) and when i got there the guy said he changed his mind and wanted 200 bucks!

So I gave him some free advice about what he could do with those axles and left.
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: wedge on November 17, 2017, 08:31:02 PM
Some times a good thing is Not a good thing   :(
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: SARgo1 on November 21, 2017, 11:09:34 PM
Well, all sorted for axles and shocks. All honda TRX bits except for two bombardier quest axles/hubs, etc. they actually look like the same untis as the honda stuff. Same length, dimensions, etc.

Looks like I may be able to just use them all in stock form (ie: length).

I will have to machine off the inner stub on the inner tripod joint so i can weld on a flange to mount to a new/shortened  "argo" axle on the tub side.

That means I will need to fabricate the suspension body mounts, A arms and wheel bearing holders/spindles.

Well, the shortened axles for the argo side as well.....;)
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: WFO on November 22, 2017, 08:32:39 AM
your on the way , good job
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: SARgo1 on November 25, 2017, 05:23:41 PM
Planning continues.

Looks like I can use two 6006-2rs bearings for the outboard CV hub/carrier. That will save $$ over a Honda specific bearing.

thinking about ditching the Argo bearings in the hull as well. Since the suspension is going to take the deflection (will be bracing up the Argo "go kart" frame), no need for anything other than a simple tapered roller bearing. Just need to find the proper size, then a seal and make a housing if needed. Easy stuff as long as I can find a bearing.

I'm also thinking of using the 2002 Bombardier quest front end components on the very most rear axle set.  I'm thinking of installing the axles, rotors, hubs and knuckles. This would allow me to mount the Quest brakes to the rear most axle and use it as my park brake. My 86 doesn't currently have one, except for a wood block I use to stuff down behind the levers. 

It also would allow me to use the steering tie rod as a fixed link and allow some toe adjustments. Now that I think of it that might also be an option for the other 6 positions too if I use the Honda knuckles there too. It sure would cut down a lot on the fabricating if I use the Honda 4x4 knuckles and just make A-Arms to mount them to the Argo....Hmmmm...more thought needed on that one, but seems to be an intriguing idea.

A simple master cylinder hooked up to a park brake lever and some hard line would do the rest for the rear axle brakes. I've got several automotive ratcheting style handles in my parts piles and that are easily re-purposed. 

I plan to use a high positive offset rim to minimize the overall added width to the whole rig, so the brake components will be inside the rim to help minimize snagging and hang up issues. I can bury lots of the suspension and other parts inside the offset rims as I don't have the traditional turning clearance concern with a skid steer. It just has to clear the vertical movement component.

I'm currently tossing around options for 12" rims. I want something aluminum (to reduce weight) and bead locks would be preferable. I can probably go without beadlocks I have too as air pressure doesn't need to be so low if the Argo is on a suspension. Opens up my tire choices as well since I don't have to worry about too hard a tire carcass. Since I'm making most of everything, I'm not limited to bolt pattern, so I've been looking outside the ATV world for 12" rims and tires. I don't really want to go any larger than 12" rims for weight concerns.

Looked at trailer wheels in 12". Prices are nice an affordable, but the widths available seem to be far to narrow for off road tires. a typical 12" trailer wheel seems to top out at about 4-4.5" width. Too bad really, i quite like the look of these:

(http://www.easternmarine.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/x225/3cc66c15dfb3ce27c2817ed6a679e959/7/9/7949_st.jpg)

Looked at golf cart rims, but they are priced nearly as crazily as ATV aluminum rims. They seem to have a high negative offset as well. Probably for that "deep dish" look old men and kids seem to like on their carts.

Tire options also reduce sharply for off road use above the typical ATV 12" size until you get into the truck sizes, typically 15" and above. That's just way too big and heavy for my little 8x8 Argo.

If I was a betting man, I'd say I'll probably end up with some version of a Honda 4x110 rim option...
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: SARgo1 on August 09, 2018, 08:52:59 PM
So, haven't done much of anything with the Argo lately. We've moved into a new home and all the work associated with that.

I'm looking at the Argo again and I'm kind of at a crossroads.

Keep it or sell it. 

I had thoughts of swapping in the Interceptor engine and making it rear engined (move the transmission and engine to the rear), But that would eliminate all but about 7-10 inches of passenger space at the rear. Sure, I could use the empty engine bay up front for storage/cargo, but we like to take our dogs with us and we need rear space for that. It would also end up being "stacked" like a Max IV, but nearly 48 inches tall at the air filter. That's without a suspension.

I've Also had the Argo out for a spin and as I remember, I really am not liking it's riding manners. The Skid steer is a rough as I remember it (IE: jarring and I'm old and broken), the skid steer is also bordering on dangerous with any speed and rough ground (IE; darts easily), the speed is still slow (no surprise there), it bangs and bounces over everything (I'm old and broken, remember?), it's loud as hell (engine and straight cut gear trans), it's hot, its....well, it's just not fun anymore.

If I keep it, I think I have to go "all in" and make it a heavily customized jobbie: eight wheel steering, suspension, lifted, etc. This likely means loosing the amphibious capability, which actually insn't that a big deal anymore as it will be a trail toy only. It's got knobbies on it, so it doesn't swim worth a damn anyways. I use a 2hp Johnson 2 stroke when I want water travel.

The 8 wheel steering I can work out fairly easily, but it likely means it's going to be more "monster truck like" than Amphib like. IE: make a frame, drop the tub on it and have it look like and argo but that's about it.

Suspension and steerable wheels means I loose the ability to use the supertracks, but I don't use it in snow anymore anyways. I could probably sell the supertracks for a fair bit of coin as they're still in pretty decent shape.

I still don't want a quad, but I don't want to build a 4x4 truck either. Side by side is not something I want either.

Of course, an Argo tub on a custom steering 8x8 chassis would be pretty neat to see on the trails too. Would be quite the conversation piece. That it already has a registration is a bonus. ORV's need a registration here and getting one for a "homebuilt" rig/buggy is a major PITA.

If I did sell it, I'll never get anywhere what I need out of it. It's too old and everyone wants something these days they can jump in and go without doing any work on it. That's not my 86 argo by any means.


Maybe I'll just park it in the back of the garage for a few more months and not think about it for a while...
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: SARgo1 on November 17, 2018, 04:53:37 PM
Did some work on the Argo that it's been needing.

Axle bearings, axle seals, chains, etc.

Did some work on the electrical system. Nothing major, just a quick cleanup. Some of the tires were leaking down, so I fixed that and set the pressures at 2.5 psi.

Fixed the windshield attachment points. The base was loose and the struts were in the wrong place and partially pulled through the body. Tightened up the soft top attachments, pushed it all into the zippered storage pouch and fastened that to it's button snaps.

A few adjustments to other systems like the brakes and then I buttoned 'er up.

A test ride was in order and we got a nice coating of wet sloppy snow last night. Perfect for the Argo with knobby tires. Plenty of grip available, but greasy enough to let it turn fairly easily.

So off I went down the road and into the sand pit at the end of the street. Lots of looks and smiles from guys as I pass by. Argo's aren't very common around here and it's not normal to see one go by.

Ride is much better. Not a noisey as it used to be, which I guess I account to the chains not slapping around and bearings rumbling and growling.  It's still not what could be called "quiet", but it's much more livable. Steering is still skid steer jerky, but it's much more progressive than it was. Probably down to the chains not being as sloppy as they were. It's even easier to keep it straight for longer periods, I'm guessing due to the tire pressures being even and the bearings not being "floppy" anymore.

Even the change in the windshield attachment seems to help, with it not rattling, banging and flopping like it used to.

You know, I actually had fun with the little bugger! the snow seemed to level the ground out a bit so not much bouncing. I was able to wind it out to top speed (which isn't too fast anyways) and still control it just fine. Not much in the way of jarring the old bod.

So I've got a few more chains to change out and some electrical work to finish up. It can only make the ol' Argo stronger and more enjoyable to use than it is now.

Maybe, just maybe, it's going to get a reprieve.....
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: SARgo1 on November 19, 2018, 09:54:16 AM
Had the Argo out again today. Sunk it in a nice deep slough. Its water tight again, so thats a small victory!

It climbs, sidehills and bushwhacks like a mother.

It was cold, snowing mixed with rain and I was warm and dry bashing through the woods under the soft top.

Yep, I think I’ll keep it. Seems to be just about right for an okder gent like myself who just doesnt want to get wet and muddy anymore. A springer conversion and a better engine should make it just about perfect!
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: SARgo1 on November 25, 2018, 05:48:28 PM
And it begins:

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f17/19/98/07/74/b5374c10.jpg)

Phase one was a rebuild of worn out parts on the Argo. Turned out to be mostly just chains, seals and bearings. With that coming to a close, its time for phase 2:

Engine swap.

Phase 3 will be some steering/cockpit changes and phase 4 will be 8 wheel independent suspension.

I pulled the ol’ ‘Ceptor in from cold storage and started pulling off the bodywork. It hasn't run in several years, so I wanted to make sure it was still mechanically solid. Ran fine when I put it away last time, so it should be a fairly easy job waking it up.

But it was not to be. Before I bought it many moons ago, the PO had wrecked it. The front end to be precise. In the process of (I use this term VERY loosely)  “repairing” it, they had swapped on an 83-84 fuse panel. Well, this is an 85 and that's a one year part. So they had hacked and spliced the harness, stealing power from places they had no business messing with.

So when I tried to kick it over: nothing. Their bodge had finally failed. I traced it all down and figured out what the issue was, chopped out their mess and ran an adequate sized jumper to get power where it needed to be.

I know the carbs are a mess by now, so a couple squirts of fuel down the throats and kick it over. Coughs a couple times, catches and runs a few seconds and then shuts down. 

That's good enough for today and I push it aside to bring the stuff back in the garage for the night.

Tomorrow I’ll yank the carbs and drop them in the ultrasonic cleaner.  Once I know it runs decently, I’ll yank the engine and start measuring and fitting in the Argo.

:)
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: SARgo1 on November 26, 2018, 06:58:30 PM
yanked the carbs today and dropped 'em in the ultrasonic cleaner.

Dropped them back on the bike. Jumped a 12v battery to it and after a few cranks, started right up.

Ran a little ragged until it cleared it's throat and then it settled down into a nice steady idle.

So it's soild. tomorrow I'll pul the engine out of the Honda frame and start working out the details of the engine swap.
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: garretttpe on November 26, 2018, 09:43:40 PM
Thanks for sharing your build with us, It is always fascinating what people do to these m tpachines
Title: Re: 1986 Conquest 8x8 build up for SAR!
Post by: SARgo1 on December 01, 2018, 07:17:32 PM
Getting closer to the final form of the seats:

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f62/19/98/07/74/47984610.jpg)

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f62/19/98/07/74/4f0bac10.jpg)

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f62/19/98/07/74/a0c25310.jpg)

I decided to go with the two side benches instead of a single rear bench across the back. If needed, I can get more people in there that way.

The battery/storage compartment will still be there, but the top lid will be strong enough to be used as a step and there will be a fold down outside step to aid entry instead of trying to scramble in over the sides. The rear benches will get backs on them anyways.

The front seat back will be raised on a frame just a bit from what you see and the center portion will fold down to be used as an armrest or a pass through area if you need to get from the front seat to the back. Something similar to the newer Argo “huntmaster” front seat with fold down center.
Title: Re: Project: ArgoCeptor!
Post by: SARgo1 on December 02, 2018, 01:23:04 PM
The V45 is going to be taller than the Kohler Magnum. Especially so with the V45 airbox (tossing the irbox means no end of problems with CV carbs so I'm keeping it). So I need some way to cover it in the engine bay and that will look somewhat like it should be there. Sticking a scoop on the stock HDPE "hood" wasn't going to look good at all and I wasn't looking forward to the thought of it.

Then i remembered I had a hood scoop I was building for my 83 Mustang up in the rafters. I shelved it when I found a stock 83 hood bulge to use instead. I pulled it out and set it on the stock hood:

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f62/19/98/07/74/fr_43410.jpg)

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f62/19/98/07/74/fr_43411.jpg)

Yup, I like that! It's already very close to the right size and since it's fiberglass, it's an easy job to modify it to fit the opening and raise it up a bit. It would also be easy to add a small "bulge" in it (sometimes called a "power dome" in Ford speak) to give some extra clearance, if needed.

You can also see a Pontiac Firebird hood vent (red thing) in that pic. I'm thinking of finding a spot to incorporate them also, just to help in shedding engine bay heat (well, cause it looks kinda cool too!)

You might ask why the opening is to the rear instead of facing front like a traditional scoop. I've seen them done that way before and it looks kinda cool (not mine, pic I found on the net):

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f62/19/98/07/74/110.jpg)

But the opening on mine is more for cooling than anything else. Since the Argo is essentially a sealed "tub", when it will be drawing air in over the radiator (the V45 is water cooled with puller fans) it needs a way out. The hood scoop opening at the back will allow the heat to escape and having it escape at the base of the windshield may also help with keeping the glass clear (rain, snow fog, etc). Facing rearward also makes more sense to me for water travel: forward opening wouldn't be great if entering water too fast (by mistake) or if a wave happens to breach over the front. Engine bay heat might be a bit of a problem with the windshield folded down, but I don't tend to drive the Argo with it down anyways.

In keeping with the "ArgoCeptor" theme, I'm going to find a way to incorporate the instrument panel from the Interceptor in to the Argo:

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f62/19/98/07/74/fr_43412.jpg)

Has all the stuff I need to monitor the V45 and a few other neat bits. I may even hook up the speedo. I can either build or buy a correction gearbox for the speedo cable to get it close to actual speed. Getting the drive for it off one of the axles is easy peasy. I'll probably have to make up  fiberglass dash piece to fit it all in. Likely one that spans the whole width of the body and make it a bit more "cockpit" like. I'll just make it so it can be attached with fasteners to the existing HDPE body rather than try to fiberglass it directly to the HDPE (fiberglassing to HDPE is a recipe for failure!).

I'm also thinking of adding striped to the body, in keeping with the white red and blue Interceptor theme:

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f62/19/98/07/74/1985_h10.jpg)

I'd like to paint the orange HDPE body white and do the red and white interceptor style stripes, but the HDPE won't really take paint well and sooner or later it will turn into just a chipped and flaking mess. But I can have some vinyl graphics made up and apply them to the body. Probably white base, with a red and white stripe on it that will go on the upper body half front to back, incorporating the name "ArgoCeptor" at the rear and maybe the "V45" or "V-Four" logo on the hood somewhere. Have to think on that one for a while. It looks good in my mind's eye, just not sure how it will translate to real life...
Title: Re: Project: ArgoCeptor!
Post by: garretttpe on December 02, 2018, 06:18:56 PM
Nice work, thanks for the pictures and posts, I enjoy seeing your progress. I noticed you have a long piece of SCAT hose, what will that be used for? We use the heck of SCAT in Aviation..
Title: Re: Project: ArgoCeptor!
Post by: SARgo1 on December 03, 2018, 07:05:14 AM
Nice work, thanks for the pictures and posts, I enjoy seeing your progress. I noticed you have a long piece of SCAT hose, what will that be used for? We use the heck of SCAT in Aviation..

That's for the brake cooling ducting.

I'm military, Flight Engineer.

;)
Title: Re: Project: ArgoCeptor!
Post by: SARgo1 on December 03, 2018, 07:07:52 AM
Put some work into getting the Kohler ready to pull. With most of the bits out, i could take better measurements. That big v4 750 is going to be a squeeze!

I’m not sure if it will fit lengthwise. Its a good 8-10” longer than the Kohler and the Argo transmission might be an issue, space wise. Theres room in the tub to go further forward with the v4, but its hard to say how tight a fit it will be until I actually set it down in the engine bay. I also don’t want to get the front cylinder header pipes too close to the plastic hull. I may end up having to see if I can sneak the argo transmission back a few inches, but there’s precious little room for driver and passenger legs in the front seat already. 

Height of the V4 is also a problem. Well, it’s not a problem if I dont use hood. Yeah...that's not going to happen!

I will have to modify the airbox. It’s just too tall with it sitting down in the engine V between the cylinders. But it only means making a cut and rotating the front half of it down to level. I can then plastic weld a patch piece in and there should be minimal disruption to the airbox other than added volume (not always a bad thing!).

The hood I have a couple options. I can make a spacer to pop the oem hood up about 3-4 inches:

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f62/19/98/07/74/7a62e710.jpg)

But I have to leave the rear lower than the front in order to still be able to lower the windshield and still get the height I need in the front to clear the V4.

Second and third options are I can mount the fiberglass hood facing forward or rearward:

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f62/19/98/07/74/55678410.jpg)

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f62/19/98/07/74/43580110.jpg)

Opening facing forward still doesn’t look right to me and the hood slopes to the back pretty severely to clear the windshield pivot. I’m also not sure how to make the opening look like anything else besides “unfinished, even if I add some kind of meshing. I could make it look like something finished,  ut it will always stand out as “odd”. The angles are just all wrong.

Open rearward still looks the best, but the front still looks pretty high. The scoop is actually sitting level across the top as it has a taper built in to it for the “scoop forward” orientation, so the “nose high” is a bit of an illusion from the angles.

I think I’m still going to go with the rear facing fiberglass hood. The front I can mitigate the “blocky look” by sculpting the side and leading edge to more of a taper to meet the body and the V4  engine is only about 10” wide at the air cleaner and heads. That means I may still have to make a “bump” in the middle at the front, but that's pretty easy to make look OK on a hood. I might even be a to add the firebird vents to the sides of the bulge to make it look more integrated and pull it all together more visually. IOW: like the bulge is designed to be there.

The v4 swap is not exactly “falling together” like it’s meant to be there, but a plan is taking shape...
Title: Re: Project: ArgoCeptor!
Post by: SARgo1 on December 03, 2018, 12:06:57 PM
Fooling around with photoshop:

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f62/19/98/07/74/argoce10.jpg)

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f62/19/98/07/74/argoce11.jpg)

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f62/19/98/07/74/argoce12.jpg)

just kicking ideas around......
Title: Re: Project: ArgoCeptor!
Post by: Argo8x8 on December 03, 2018, 04:35:17 PM
Enjoying watching your build, Thanks Jeff Bar
Title: Re: Project: ArgoCeptor!
Post by: SARgo1 on December 03, 2018, 06:46:19 PM
I officiated over 2 divorces today:

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f62/19/98/07/74/86239610.jpg)

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f62/19/98/07/74/cdfb0d10.jpg)

After the official proceedings were finished, they went their separate ways for that happy and swinging single time everyone experiences after getting out of a dying/dead relationship:

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f62/19/98/07/74/0c3c8c10.jpg)

Then they noticed someone new that they might like to “get with”:

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f62/19/98/07/74/3dbc0010.jpg)

Then the always awkward first date, a night cap at the end and then someone ends up in bed with someone else:

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f62/19/98/07/74/602e6410.jpg)

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f62/19/98/07/74/6fdf2810.jpg)

It was awkward, slightly uncomfortable and maybe even a bit painful, but still strangely satisfying. Both have enough curiosity to want to try it again on a second date!

 :lol:

Man, that V-four looks the business sitting in there! Quite a serious looking piece of kit! Like a 60’s muscle car with too much engine in too small a chassis, it looks ready to party!

So the big V45 fits....well, mostly. It’s sitting quite high right now, but there’s  a good 5” it can be dropped. The old Kohler engine mount bracket is narrower than the V45 oil pan and the engine is sitting up on top of it right now:

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f62/19/98/07/74/bec26610.jpg)

There may also be an additional inch or two I can drop if I rework the “power pack” tray. But with just the 5” drop from removing the Kohler bracket, that will get all of the V45 under the stock hood height. All of it except for the carb plenum/air cleaner housing. Thats easily handled with a custom hood. The real issue is its further forward than what I measured, which may be a problem with packaging it all inside the Argo body. Anything that alters the airbox too much turns CV carbs in to a total jetting nightmare...

Tomorrow I’ll look at getting it fit in there at a proper height. Which means cutting the Kohler engine mount brackets off. Sort of a “not turning back” point, but in reality I can always weld them back on if needed.

Lots more to sort out and build, but its a good start!

:)
Title: Re: Project: ArgoCeptor!
Post by: ascaw on December 03, 2018, 08:26:10 PM
That is a really tight fit.  Not much room to play with.  How hard will it be to change the oil?
Title: Re: Project: ArgoCeptor!
Post by: SARgo1 on December 03, 2018, 09:25:54 PM
No harder than the Kohler was....
Title: Re: Project: ArgoCeptor!
Post by: garretttpe on December 04, 2018, 07:02:47 AM
I think if you use the big hammer on left in picture number 6 the engine will fit fine. hilarious hilarious, awesome job so far
Title: Re: Project: ArgoCeptor!
Post by: SARgo1 on December 04, 2018, 10:02:54 AM
Still playing around with photoshop:

(https://i62.servimg.com/u/f62/19/98/07/74/argoce13.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/19980774/233)

That's starting to look pretty good!
Title: Re: Project: ArgoCeptor!
Post by: SARgo1 on December 04, 2018, 02:26:35 PM
Decided to just pull the whole power pack tray in order to fit the V45 engine. And then teh Joy of PO damage popped out at me:

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f62/19/98/07/74/fr_43610.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/19980774/236)
(https://i.servimg.com/u/f62/19/98/07/74/fr_43711.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/19980774/235)
(https://i.servimg.com/u/f62/19/98/07/74/fr_43710.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/19980774/234)

It's hit something pretty hard in it's past. The plastic tub and skid plate are fine, but the steel frame plate is bent up a good 3" in the worst spot. You can even see where it w jammed up into the drive sprockets, which wore a new "channel" in the metal!

Oh well, time to be the BFH out....
Title: Re: Project: ArgoCeptor!
Post by: SARgo1 on December 04, 2018, 08:13:58 PM
Well, there it sits;

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f62/19/98/07/74/fr_43712.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/19980774/237)

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f62/19/98/07/74/fr_43713.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/19980774/238)

All 88 screaming Honda horses!

No mounts built yet, but that's where it needs to sit to line up with the Argo transmission and adequately clear the front of the tub and the frame.

It also means the Argo transmission has to slide back about 1.5-2.5 inches to clear the back of the V45 transmission case. Not that big a deal as I've got new double 40 chain to replace the worn out transmission to idler shaft chains. I'll just make the chain a little longer and the chain doesn't care if it's running straight up and down or on a little bit of an angle. As long as the sprokets are in the same plane, chains are happy to just go about thier business. There should also be enough clearance to the firewall to slide it back that much. If not, it doesn't really matter as I think I'm going to have to make a new firewall anyways. The front footwell isn't exactly what you would call "roomy" to start with, but you'll never notice an inch or two of less.

Looks like about a 12" run from the V45 output sprocket to the Argo input shaft. The V45 output will sit lower than the Argo input, so that will have an upward run. Again, chain doesn't care about it's orientation as far as that goes.

Here you can see the issue the airbox poses:

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f62/19/98/07/74/fr_43714.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/19980774/239)

Sits pretty high as it is. I think I can cut the box just behind the upper airbox lid screws and angle the forward portion down. That would make it easy to get under a custom hood with a reasonable "bulge"in the center.

Its a bit of work to get this all to fit, but nothing outside of my wheelhouse. Pretty basic fabrication stuff for me actually.

Oh, the height the whole rig is sitting at on teh jack stands is probably where it will end up once I'm finished the suspension fabrication. It will go from about 5" at the lowest point on the tub/skidplate to about 11-12" at the lowest point. Not a huge jump in ground clearance, but adequate for me as the rig is pretty hard to get stuck as it is with the HDPE just sliding over everything. I just want to drag and gouge it less than I do now. No tto mention, suspension to soak up the impacts before it gets to the ol' bod....

:)
Title: Re: Project: ArgoCeptor!
Post by: snaps10 on December 05, 2018, 12:08:22 PM
Can you not run tubing to a cone air filter?  Forego the box, and keep your intake out of the warmth of the engine?

Title: Re: Project: ArgoCeptor!
Post by: SARgo1 on December 05, 2018, 03:33:29 PM
Can you not run tubing to a cone air filter?  Forego the box, and keep your intake out of the warmth of the engine?

The problem is the CV carbs. Because of the way they are designed to operate, they need to see intake vacuum/mass flow rates within their design limitations. Tossing pods on CV carbs is almost always a recipe for low power output and poor running. Same thing with just open CV carbs.

Tubing to a cone filter raises the need to make sure the vacuum signal is still within spec. But that's a "spec" that is unknown, except to the original engineers who designed the carbs and box.  But remote mounting the airbox is an option I have considered.

I absolutely have to keep the plenum above the carbs to keep the factory velocity stacks and flow characteristics, but most importantly: the aluminum lower lortion of the plenum is also part of the csrb support bracketry. But I have considered “slicing off”  the filter housing (part that sticks up so high), adding ducting to the remaining carb plenum and relocating the filter housing. I’d still have to make a “pop up” in the hood, but it would only need to be about 2-4” instead of 6-7” high. Thats a big difference when you are trying to look over it from the driver seat...

But it's a shot in the dark that anything besides the stock airbox will work properly.

I have jetted CV carbs to work without a stock airbox before and got it to run decently, but it's always more work than any sane person wants to undertake....
Title: Re: Project: ArgoCeptor!
Post by: SARgo1 on December 06, 2018, 11:34:03 PM
Well, engine mounted to the power pack “sled”:

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f17/19/98/07/74/0c891710.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/19980774/243)

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f17/19/98/07/74/e0752110.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/19980774/244)

I elected to go the “simple route” for engine mounting. I just lopped the bottom of the VF frame off, used some 2” angle to make a platform on the sled and welded the frame rails directly to the 2” angle. The frame aleady had perfectly allgned mounts for the V4 engine, so I figured “why re-invent the wheel”? As a 90 degree V and a 360 degree crank pin, the V4 has perfect primary balance, so it doesnt vibrate. That's why Honda could mount it to solid mounts in the VF frame as a stressed member and the same reason why I can just straight up weld the frame sections to the argo “sled”.

You do get a second order vibe at around 7,000-8,000 rpm, but its just a very mild “buzz” at worst. If you feel it at all that is. I don’t plan to ever have the rpm that high in the Argo anyways. No need to be trying to rip along at 75-80 mph in an 8x8 Argo! Yipes!

Dropped it all into the engine bay:

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f17/19/98/07/74/bb58f110.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/19980774/242)

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f17/19/98/07/74/1ef8f310.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/19980774/245)

Pretty good! Its a little further forward than I had wanted, but it was nessesary to clear things like the oil pan and a few other bits. Might make it a touch more nose heavy, but I’m hoping the planned group 27 battery mounted in its new spot at the very rear of the rig will help balance that out some. Time will tell...

The Argo trans is slid back about an inch and will get slotted mounting holes so I can make adjusters to tension the drive chain between the V45 and the Argo input  shaft. The Argo output chains will still be the stock argo ajusters on the back of the sled. The v45 is offset to the LH side in order to line up the vf output sprocket and the argo input sprocket a little closer. Looks like I will still have to make an offset output sprocket to get the final lineup correct. Not much, maybe 3/4-1” offset. Engine offset to the left isn’t such a bad thing for balance as the driver sits on the tight side of this rig.

The Argo input sprocket build will be more involved than just an offset sprocket like the V45 output. The sprocket and carrier will be reused from the CBR wheel that was on the VF. I’m currently also looking at machining out the wheel center to reuse the “cush drive” in the wheel hub. Basically, the sprocket carrier pushes into the wheel hub where there are rubber dampers. These dampers take up vibration and shock loads to make life easier on things like the gearboxes and chains. Would be nice to be able to incorporate it to make life easier on the Argo transmission as well as the VF box. I have a general plan worked out on how to do it, i just have to see if I have the clearances.

Building the exhaust is going to be “fun”. Its pretty tight up at the front cylinders and the rear pipes on the the V4’s are always a tight fit. Add in the fact I plan dual mufflers with rear exits and exhaust becomes a major project/pain all by itself.

Ugh. Exhaust fabrication is never easy...

I’m toying with using the stock Argo hood:

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f17/19/98/07/74/ee840010.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/19980774/246)

Theres no way it will clear the intake as it is, but if I turn it around backwards and make a spacer piece to raise it up, it will work. Looks a little “off” to my eye as it needs to be higher in the front (to clear the airbox) than the back (low enough to let the windshield fold). Still thinking about that or the custom fiberglass hood. Either way, I need about an additional 4” at the front to clear the airbox...
Title: Re: Project: ArgoCeptor!
Post by: garretttpe on December 07, 2018, 07:10:47 AM
SARgo1
what an awesome build so far, thank you so much for sharing. I look forward to seeing your posts everyday.. your morning is my night. I personally cant wait to see this beast running....

Makes me want to get another MAX just to modify the heck out of it
Title: Re: Project: ArgoCeptor!
Post by: SARgo1 on December 07, 2018, 08:45:34 AM
Yeah, pretty sure I’m going to go with a custom fiberglass hood:

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f17/19/98/07/74/5985e010.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/19980774/248)

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f17/19/98/07/74/c171bc10.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/19980774/249)

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f17/19/98/07/74/838bb010.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/19980774/247)

Sorry about the crap pics, the sun choose that exact moment to clear and come right in the window directly on the hood.

Thats just a rough mock up, but you can see the shape. The bulge over the airbox will be rounded off and blended into the rest of the hood so it looks like it should be there. It’s just standard fiberglass procedures to get it the way I want it and I’m pretty good with ‘glass....;)

Its just going to be easier to rework the fiberglass into something that looks like its supposed to be there as opposed to the stock hood with some kind of “spacer” to get it high enough to clear the airbox.

That the entire rear of the fiberglass hood is wide open is a big plus for shedding engine bay heat and I always have the option of adding additional venting to the rest of the hood surface if I need it.

:)
Title: Re: Project: ArgoCeptor!
Post by: SARgo1 on December 08, 2018, 06:52:57 PM
Didn't do much to the Argo today. Fiberglassed the hood pieces back together and started a wire frame for the hood blister:

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f17/19/98/07/74/58cbf910.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/19980774/250)
(https://i.servimg.com/u/f17/19/98/07/74/04ad6810.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/19980774/251)

Just a start, but you can start to see the shape. Its mostly like a fat teardrop.

The one side is kicked out wider to accommodate airbox ducting. I decided there was no other way to make it fit and look good than to duct the airbox.

So the plenum of the airbox over the carbs will remain unchanged, but the filter will be relocated to the RH side of the engine and ducting connecting the plenum to the air filter housing. Hopefully, that won’t change the airbox characteristics too much to the point where I have to get down in to the carb body casting ports to make it run right.

If it becomes too much of a problem, I may just yank the 4 keihins and drop a custom manifold and a small 2bbl (think: Volkswagen bug) on there. Then its a straight cable actuated carb instead of CV slides and not as hypersensitive to airbox chages. I may loose some HP off the top end. But seeing as I’m starting with 90hp, i can loose 30 hp and still be at 60hp. Hp peak is up around 9 grand and I’ll never be there anyways (or at least I SHOULDN’T be there in an argo!). Even 60hp is more than enough and a single 2bbl might actually improve lower end torque.
Title: Re: Project: ArgoCeptor!
Post by: SARgo1 on December 09, 2018, 12:21:38 PM
OK, so the way this is going, I could very well end up with the "fastest" Argo 8x8 ever built.

On land at least.

In the water though, its still going to be a 2-3 mph slug-fest. That seems kind of like dating a beautiful girl with a fat ass. Starts out great, but just disappointing in the end...

So I'm thinking I need to do something about the water speed. This is all just me tossing ideas around, so nothing is out of bounds. It's also a VERY long term thing, if I do it at all.

Problems opposing water speed are many:

1. Displacement hull.
They only go so fast and the shorter the hull and blunter the stern, the slower it goes.

2. Propulsion.
Yeah, eight churning tires are only even going to produce so much thrust and it's a pathetic amount at that.

3. Drag.
Kind of part of #1 and #2, but those eight tires hanging out there are drag monsters, even when turning.

So, what to do about those issues:

1. Displacement hull.
There's really only one way to deal with the argo's hull; get it up and out of the water. That means getting it on plane. That means thrust and hydrodynamic drag reduction. Getting it on plane is also a balance issue, as the Argo is quite nose heavy in the best of conditions.

2. Propulsion.
Couple routes here. I could power a jet drive off the V45 engine or I can just hang an outboard with enough power on it.  Jet drive off the existing powertrain is appealing from a weight perspective, but an outboard is attractive from the simplicity angle. Outboard also gives me lots of  trimming options and steering is simple. I'd have to devise a way to raise and lower it every time I enter water deep enough to use it. Tires will still work fine for short crossings though.

3. Drag.
The 300 pound gorilla sitting in the corner of the room. it's those tires really. Not a chance in hell of getting it up on plane while those tires are (essentially) the bottom surface on the rig.  Too much drag, too much turbulence. But, I may have a way around it. The rig will eventually get a suspension. Which means the tires will be capable of raising and lowering on their A arms. If I make a "frame" under the hull, I can devise a way to lift the tires up to as far as they will go, have a "slide out" foil surface under them and possibly eliminate the darg component and give it a chance to get on plane.

It's not outside the realm of possibility to get it on plane. Vehicles like the Gibbs Quadski and Terraquad already use the same type of scheme (ie: retract tires, motorcycle engine, jet drive) and you can get the kitchen table up on plane if you wanted to. Sure, the Gibbs amphibs (and any other similar rig) are a compromise and does both roles OK but neither stellar. But the Argo is already a compromise in the same fashion, although it can be argued it is biased towards land performance instead of water.

So the question is: can I build it in the garage and still have the whole rig usable and not a temperamental pile of cra.........err, junk.

Like I said this is just spit balling. There's a couple years worth of work on the engine and suspension before I can even consider looking at water speed increases.
Title: Re: Project: ArgoCeptor!
Post by: SARgo1 on December 10, 2018, 08:00:12 AM
Well, I need to go from the chain drive V45 to the belt driven argo transmission. I also need a way to minimize shock loading on the argo transmission when using a chain drive.

So, take one CBR/F2 rear wheel and cut the center out:

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f17/19/98/07/74/18727710.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/19980774/252)

Right about now there’s a team of VF and CBR owners furiously google-ing for my address and forming the lynch mob! Lol!

Chuck the resulting lump up in the lathe and turn it down to the pieces that I need:

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f17/19/98/07/74/2cfd8010.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/19980774/257)

You can see the rubber “dampers” that absorb the chain shock loads. They also let the sprocket carrier "float" a tiny bit to account for small misalignment with suspension action. In my case, it will afford some tolerance if/when the Argo frame "flexes".

Assemble the bits:

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f17/19/98/07/74/c49a4c10.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/19980774/255)

Perfect!

Test fit on the Argo input shaft:

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f17/19/98/07/74/9c928010.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/19980774/258)

That's going to work nicely!

Last piece I have to make is a steel adapter to fit the center bore in the aluminum wheel hub to the Argo input shaft. It will be attached to the Argo shaft the same way the CV driven clutch is built: aluminum sheave with a steel center pressed in and keyed to the Argo gearbox.

Coming together nicely.

:)
Title: Re: Project: ArgoCeptor!
Post by: SARgo1 on December 11, 2018, 01:31:20 PM
So I'm thinking more about the getting the argo hull to plane in the water.

As mentioned, with the suspension build comes the opportunity to make the wheels retractable. At least enough to raise them above the bottom of the hull, if not out of the water. Suspension is relatively easy to design, but retracting suspension is a fair bit more work.

So before I put any thought in to a retracting suspension, I think I need to find out if the hull can be reasonably made to plane in the first place. So I think I have a plan to test if the hull will plane (and be controllable) before even striking the first arc.

This summer, I'll take it down to the water, drop an outboard on the back, remove all 8 wheels and see it the sucker will "get up on step" as a hull.  If it will get up on plane, then I at least know I have something I can work with. The axles will still be sticking out, but a big hopefully they won't be as much an impediment to planing as the tires.

If the hull refuses to plane without anything bigger than a 10-15 Hp outboard, then I can abandon the thoughts of trying to make it plane at all and just build a fixed suspension under it. If I have to settle for a fixed suspension and no plane, I'll just have to settle for displacement hull speeds around 2-5 mph....
Title: Re: Project: ArgoCeptor!
Post by: ascaw on December 11, 2018, 04:51:58 PM
Be careful removing the tires and using it in the water as the tires add a lot of buoyancy and stability.  Even if it is just a test, I wouldn't want to hear that you to accidentally capsized it.
Title: Re: Project: ArgoCeptor!
Post by: SARgo1 on December 11, 2018, 07:21:44 PM
Be careful removing the tires and using it in the water as the tires add a lot of buoyancy and stability.  Even if it is just a test, I wouldn't want to hear that you to accidentally capsized it.

Only one way to find out...

Be a good 5-6 months before theres enough open water and warm enough that I want to actually try it though.

If it does plane, at best I’m thinking it will behave like a flat bottom jon-boat. Of course, straight ahead running on glass flat water only and just long enough to prove it will. Last thing I would want is to dip a bare axle (or 4) in the water at speed: instant dig and maybe even a flip...yipes!

Testing will start in knee deep water a best, until I get an idea of how it will behave, or if it even floats at all. Lots of shallow bottom lakes around these parts.

Honestly, with all the weight an argo carries up front, I’m skeptical it will even “get out of the hole”. Gotta try though. If for no other reason than to satisfy my curiosity...
Title: Re: Project: ArgoCeptor!
Post by: snaps10 on December 11, 2018, 08:41:08 PM
I'm skeptical that it'll get on plane at all.  I've had a hard enough time getting some boats on plane, and that was without a 4cyl in the front. 

Do you use it that often in the water, and on that big of water?

I'm going the route of a big trolling motor on a bass boat retractable mount on the side of mine and just going to live with the slow water speeds.  My idea is that I'll only use it in the water long enough to get me to somewhere my wheels can bite.
Title: Re: Project: ArgoCeptor!
Post by: SARgo1 on December 11, 2018, 09:26:05 PM
I'm skeptical that it'll get on plane at all.  I've had a hard enough time getting some boats on plane, and that was without a 4cyl in the front. 

Do you use it that often in the water, and on that big of water?

I'm going the route of a big trolling motor on a bass boat retractable mount on the side of mine and just going to live with the slow water speeds.  My idea is that I'll only use it in the water long enough to get me to somewhere my wheels can bite.

I’m guessing you are right,  but I gotta try or I’ll always wonder...
Title: Re: Project: ArgoCeptor!
Post by: SARgo1 on December 13, 2018, 12:00:58 PM
Ok, stay with me on this one. It's going to get a little weird for the uninitiated.

More thoughts on water speed.

This is probably going to sound right out in left field if you use your Argo for hunting or hauling stuff. Heck, It may sound nuts even if you just use it for fun.

Looking at the Argo and options for getting it on plane, I just don't think it will happen. Even if I make the wheels retract up above the bottom of the hull, the front 3 sets will still be underwater(and most of the fourth set as well). That means drag, lots of it. It very likely means I won't be able to get enough power on it to get it up on plane. If it did plane, the power requirement goes waaay down (and speed goes up), but I just don't think I'm going to be able to overcome the drag to get it there.

Now, crazy idea time:

Hydrofoil.

A hydrofoil works by lifting the craft out of the water. Beauty of them is, they don't require a lot of power to create that lift. The foil under the water ifs a wing and the camber can be adjusted to create more or less lift (there are drag penalties, but nothing like eight tires).

Once the hull is up out of the water, the drag of the tires goes away and the power requirements goes even lower to keep it up on the foils. You have a foil in the front in the water, foils in the back and the prop/leg from the outboard and that's it. Everything else is clear of the water.

Obviously, it has to be retracting or folding, or the land performance of the Argo is negatively impacted. It's also only going to be good for travel on lakes or waters of some depth. You don't need deep water to operate a hydrofoil, but you need 4 or 5 feet of depth to deploy it.

I've built a lot of stuff over my 53 years, but never a hydrofoil. At least nothing bigger than an RC model. I gotta say, I'm kinda swayed towards trying it for the challenge if nothing else. I've always liked the story of the "flying 400", a hydrofoil warship sea trialed right here in my home province:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/91/HMCS_Bras_d%27Or_03.jpg/1200px-HMCS_Bras_d%27Or_03.jpg)

Named "HMCS Bras 'Dor" after the Bras 'Dor lakes in Cape Breton, where Alexander Graham Bell built and flew hydrofoils and eventually the silver dart, first powered flight in Canada.

It's a bit of engineering to work it out, but the actual construction is nothing difficult. If you look at this model pic of a surface piercing foil:

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/0GW0FT1jb3A/maxresdefault.jpg)

You can begin to see how it could be made retractable on an Argo hull. The front you put a pivot point far enough back on the sides so that the foil either fits the Argo curved nose or can lift above it yet deploys below the wheels. Same with the rear. A simple strut would work to hold them in the deployed position. Refinement will make it more "integrated"  when folded for land travel. Then it's just a long leg outboard (or a moveable mount plate) on the back for power.

Here's a video of a home built boat based hydrofoil:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89ExF3xb-6g (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89ExF3xb-6g)

Concepts are the same, although my execution would be different. On a boat, it doesn't matter if you use a submerged or piercing foil, how it's deployed, where it sticks out when folded, etc.

"Pie in the Sky" stuff on an Argo for sure, but my initial consideration of it seems to say it's "doable".

Maybe not practical for everyone (or anyone?), but I'm not your average bear.

And I love an engineering/building challenge.

I have been thinking of building a small plane in my retirement, but this might be just as much fun to build. An airplane I would build from a "kit", but an "ArgoFoil" would be all my design.

And a lot less trouble to use (legally) once done.

Hmmmm.........the wheels are turning.....
Title: Re: Project: ArgoCeptor!
Post by: snaps10 on December 13, 2018, 12:14:02 PM
I was actually thinking about your project the other day and had this thought.

What if getting it on plane (or even out of the water) wasn't the need, but just more stable water speed?  what about a fairing for under the tires that gets close to meeting the body.  Maybe you wont make it plane, but you could definitely make it infinitely more hydrodynamic.
Title: Re: Project: ArgoCeptor!
Post by: SARgo1 on December 16, 2018, 08:53:50 AM
Progress, but very slow progress:

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f17/19/98/07/74/f5b8ba10.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/19980774/259)

This is one of those things that just doesn't happen fast.

I’m basically designing a “one off” drive system as I go, so its going to take lots of time and lots of thought before even making my first turn on the lathe.

All I’ve done so far is get my steel dimensionally true and cleaned/trued up the center hub drive bores.

“Measure twice, cut once”....
Title: Re: Project: ArgoCeptor!
Post by: SARgo1 on December 19, 2018, 01:16:34 PM
Well, it looks like this blunt, “un-boat like” lump is destined to be a 4-5 mph water borne vessel.

I ran the calculations and it’s pretty much not practical to get this thing foil borne.

The problem is the “take off” speed. In order to get enough lift to the wings at the speeds the argo is capable of, even with an outboard, the wings have to be prohibitively large.  As in: stupid large.

Its that damned argo hull again. If I could get 10-15 mph out of the hull, then the foils can be reasonably sized. But with the speed so low, the only way to do it is make the wing surface bigger and given the high weight and low speed, thats where you get in to the prohibitively large wing.

On e out of the water; not a problem. It’s getting it out of the water that is a problem.

Alas, I may have to settle for just a couple knots out of it as a top speed.   
Title: Re: Project: ArgoCeptor!
Post by: WFO on December 19, 2018, 09:22:22 PM
looks like its coming along pretty well. maybe you could add this to the back and make it faster in the water
Title: Re: Project: ArgoCeptor!
Post by: SARgo1 on December 22, 2018, 08:52:49 PM
Getting there. Slowly but surely;

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f17/19/98/07/74/cde02310.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/19980774/260)

Still to do; finish the bore to final size for the transmission input shaft, machine a groove on the large diameter (so I have a place to grab with a puller when I need to remove it), machine a recess in the large diameter for the transmission input shaft retaining bolt and broach a keyway in the trans input shaft bore.

Then its just shrink for the CBR600RR wheel hub to the center diameter and it’s good to go. Couple more days of just lazy paced work should have it done.

Then its make the offset sprocket for the engine, cut the chain to fit and move on to building the exhaust.

Little work to wire it all up and then it’s ready for a test run. Maybe in a week or two’s time.

:)
Title: Re: Project: ArgoCeptor!
Post by: SARgo1 on December 23, 2018, 01:26:19 PM
I think I'm going to make change to the drive adapter construction. The mechanic in me really is rubbed the wrong way with shrink fitting the hub to the adapter and there being no way to remove it without, essentially, destroying it. After all the time put in to building it, I sure would be "peeved" if something broke and there were no reasonable way to salvage the remaining good pieces.


So I think I'm going to change from a shrink fit to a press fit. This will mean less "holding power", but I'm going to fix that with another change. I'm going to machine a 3/8" plate to fit on the large diameter of the adapter and then grub screws through the aluminum hub to the 3/8" plate. The press fit will keep it running true and hold torque inputs, the grub screws will aid in keeping the hub from rotating and help handle the torque. Where the screws will be going is the ticker part of the piece, approx 0.250". It also open the option to use 5 to ten screws if I want (there's 5 compartments in the cush drive). One row in close to the hub, one row further out by the edges. It would pretty much have to blow apart for that to fail under load...


I also decided to machine a groove in the large diameter. This will give me a place to attach a puller if/when I need to get the entire assemble off the transmission input shaft at sometime in the future. An example of needing to get it off in the future might be changing the driven sprocket to change the final drive ratio:


(https://i.servimg.com/u/f17/19/98/07/74/fr_44210.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/19980774/261)


The adapter is a slip fit on the shaft, but a little corrosion and we all know how easy it is for these type of things to "rust weld" themselves together over time. the ability to use the puller makes it feasible to actually get it back apart in that case! LOL!
Title: Re: Project: ArgoCeptor!
Post by: SARgo1 on December 23, 2018, 02:06:07 PM
Actually, come to think of it, it might make more sense to just use a socket cap head screw and instead of going from the inside out, come from the back of the steel plate into the aluminum body.


That would give me a full head to grab when installing and removing the components. For that matter, I guess I could use a standard head bolt if I wanted since I would no longer have to worry about the bolt interfering with the internal cush drive dampers....
Title: Re: Project: ArgoCeptor!
Post by: SARgo1 on December 23, 2018, 07:32:10 PM
Test fit complete! Hub goes on the adapter slick as snot!


I took a few thou off the adapter since last posting.


I used the same technique I use to drop #2 engine bearings on compressors (one of the things I do/did at work is build jet engines from the compressor disc up).


I placed the adapter on a nice thick, flat slab of granite (I have a couple pieces that I use for surface plates when building racks of carbs and such) for a couple hours to get it temp stable with the room. Then I wrapped the hub in tin foil and in to the oven it goes (500c) for 20 mins.


I pulled it out of the oven, move quickly out to the garage, unwrap the hub and slide it down on the adapter. Goes right down to the shoulder with no problems. Well, a little drag, but that's more about me keeping it square than it not fitting.


Since I need to still cut the keyway, I pulled it back up off the adapter before it had a chance to contract.


I didn't want the hub locked to the adapter in case I mess up the keyway. I had planned to put it together and then cut the keyway, but common sense won out and said to fit the hub after cutting the keyway.  It would suck to mess up the keyway and have to throw out the adapter but I'd have a major meltdown if the hub was locked on to the adapter and I flubbed the Keyway. If I broke the hub trying to get it off, I'd need another CBR600RR wheel to turn the hub out of! No thank you, I'll wait to make sure the keyway is right first!


I worked it down to a measured 0.003" interference fit with maybe a +/- 0.001" error because of the measuring tools I have to use here. The way the hub slid on and off, it could very possibly be more like 0.002" or 0.001". Definitely won't go on when cold, so it's an interference fit for sure. If it is closer to 0.001, the back up plate and bolts I plan to add later will help lock it together to help deal with the drive torque it will see.


So, tomorrow; build myself the broach and if time, cut the keyway. After that is done, drop the hub on the adapter and on to making the offset sprocket for the engine output shaft.


Coming along nicely. Can't wait to take it for a proper rip across the field!


:)
Title: Re: Project: ArgoCeptor!
Post by: ascaw on December 23, 2018, 08:55:50 PM
Looking forward to seeing it done and in action.  It will be interesting to get your thoughts on it compared to how it was.
Title: Re: Project: ArgoCeptor!
Post by: garretttpe on December 24, 2018, 03:21:20 AM
All I can say is OUT FREAKING STANDING.....
Title: Re: Project: ArgoCeptor!
Post by: SARgo1 on December 25, 2018, 03:43:15 PM
After a totally frustrating and wasted day, I chucked the steel I had for the broach out the door.

Seems the block I was going to use had a broken off drill bit in it. After trying to punch, drill and other wise remove it from the face of this earth, I gave up and fired it in the trash pile. Being xmas eve, it was that piece of steel or nothing. I figured that was it until Well after xmas day as most places around here where I can get a block of steel 1” or bigger are pretty much closed up until january.

Got up this morning and in one last attempt a saving the project, I found an old 1 1/4 receiver hitch tongue in the back of the garage.  I chopped it up and it machines like a dream. Some kind of mild steel, carbide tools glide right through it and leave a nice finish.

So after half a day of dinking in the garage, I have the cross slide 5/8” holder and the 5/8” cold rolled bar built.

Now to move on to making the rest of the broach/shaper attachment...,after the turkey dinner settles and I can move again that is!

;)
Title: Re: Project: ArgoCeptor!
Post by: SARgo1 on December 26, 2018, 07:55:02 PM
Certainly not finished, but here's the "mostly completed" keyway cutter I'm building:

https://youtu.be/vV7m9E2Ds6s

It's got a 4.5" stroke at the cutter position and has a .003" runout at the full length of the stroke. Pretty good for my first attempt at making a "shaper". I'm thinking of adding a gib screw a the front and back to take up even more of that .003". But it's certainly usable for my purposes as it sits.

Next is to mount the cutting tool at the end, make some spacers to replace the washer stacks you can see in teh linkages and some misc finishing up work. Eventually, I'll turn a handle for the end of the lever bar.Just to clean it up if nothing else.

:)
Title: Re: Project: ArgoCeptor!
Post by: SARgo1 on December 29, 2018, 10:20:18 AM
Well, it's cutting:


(https://www.hobby-machinist.com/attachments/fr_4435_size880-jpg.283544/)

(https://www.hobby-machinist.com/attachments/fr_4434_size880-jpg.283545/)


But maaaaannnn.....is it ever slooooowwwwwwww. And it hooks and hangs a lot as well. The "dents" you see on the end of the turning are there because every time it would grab it would rack the turning, so I'd reseat it with a little bumping from the hammer. I eventually dismounted it, turned the jaws of the 4 jaw around and used the curved sections to hold the turning. That seemed to solve the racking problem. Probably should make myself a brass hammer too.....

I had to go though a couple grinding sessions until I got the cutting tooth just right. Very fussy to get the geometry just right so it would it cut the 1018 well.

I had to rework the "nose" of the bar a couple times to get as must depth as I could out of the blind hole. I also had to drill a hole in from the side to give the chips a place to break off. That was a fun task. One drill bit broke off and I had to abandon it in the hole, a second hole I messed up my measurement and it was too far up the bore, the third was in just the right spot. I'm not too worried about the couple extra holes, they're under the press fit hub once it's all assembled and the turning is so thick, a couple 3/16 holes are to going to hurt anything except my OCD.

I had several problems with the tool turning in it's mount, which caused most of the grabbing problems. I finally figured out it was actually the tool post turning in the compound rest. With the amount of force on the tool post, there was just no way to keep it from "creeping" as i worked the slotter. So I mounted up the Atlas milling attachment and that solved the problem. Side bonus is it also allows me to set the height precisely.

But I think it's going to take me 6 weeks to cut the keyway! LOL! Probably would go much better if I was cutting aluminum instead of 1018.....
Title: Re: Project: ArgoCeptor!
Post by: SARgo1 on January 01, 2019, 09:53:11 AM
Well, the fist keyway went all “wonky” on me at some point and I had to abandon it. Seems the cutting tooth shifted (or I misaligned it at some point) and it cut a ahoulder too wide.

So I flipped 180 out and cut a second keyway. That one went fine. Right now, I’m finishing up with a little file work to get the fit juuuust right and then it’s back to mounting the drive hub on the adapter.

Once thats done, i have to cut a simple spacer to postion it all correctly and then it’s on to making the offset sprocket for the VF output shaft.

Bit of a long fight, but I’m getting there.....
Title: Re: Project: ArgoCeptor!
Post by: SARgo1 on January 03, 2019, 02:44:26 PM
Been a bit of work, but the input adapter is ready for the hub:

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f17/19/98/07/74/fr_44410.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/19980774/264)

I knurled the hub shoulder in order to give it a little more "bite".

Then the hub goes into the oven to soak at 500f for 20 mins:

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f17/19/98/07/74/fr_44411.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/19980774/265)

I wrap all my heated parts in tin foil for the heat soak. Occupational habit. When I'm building jet engines and fitting something like a #2 engine bearing, we always wrap it in foil to try and keep it as hot as possible on the trip from the oven to the compressor stand.

First, one last check of the input adapter to make sure it's microscopic clean (IE: nothing to hang or cock the hub when it goes on) and then the race from the oven to drop the hub down on the adapter:

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f17/19/98/07/74/fr_44412.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/19980774/266)

Nice. Slams right home on the shoulder of the adapter. you can't even get a .001 feeler gauge under it:

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f17/19/98/07/74/fr_44413.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/19980774/267)

I'd normally do what we call "drop measurements" to make sure it's fully home, but it's more than good enough as it is for this application. No light under the adapter works for me!

Now to wait an hour or so to let it all cool. The steel hub sucked up the heat right away and it's all too hot to touch now. Last hurdle is for the aluminum casting to NOT crack once cooled, meaning my interference fit is good to go.

Then it's make a simple spacer for the input shaft (to keep the sprocket properly positioned on the hub and help locate the adapter on the shaft) and it's done.

Then on to making the offset sprocket adapter for the VF750 transmission output shaft. Compared to the rest of the machining to this point, that's easy peasy!

After that, i can get on building the exhaust. That's will be "a treat", but no where near as exacting as all the machining work so far, so it will go together relatively fast. 

:)
Title: Re: Project: ArgoCeptor!
Post by: SARgo1 on January 03, 2019, 04:07:56 PM
Cooled off and assembled:

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f17/19/98/07/74/fr_44510.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/19980774/268)

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f17/19/98/07/74/fr_44511.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/19980774/269)

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f17/19/98/07/74/fr_44512.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/19980774/270)

On the transmission input shaft:

https://youtu.be/N3P0e9GzbwM

Gotta say, I'm pretty pleased with my work!

:)

I don't even want to think about how much it would have cost me to have a machinist build this chunk....... :o
Title: Re: Project: ArgoCeptor!
Post by: garretttpe on January 03, 2019, 04:11:17 PM
Looks Awesome, What Jet engine did you work on, I have been a Garrett 331 overhaul mech since 1987,
Title: Re: Project: ArgoCeptor!
Post by: SARgo1 on January 03, 2019, 04:22:12 PM
Looks Awesome, What Jet engine did you work on, I have been a Garrett 331 overhaul mech since 1987,

J85CAN40, T58GE-100, T56, GE CT7-8E.

J85's I used to place the front frame on the stand and build an engine on it. The others, not quite so deep. Usually no deeper than down to the combustion chambers. Compressors was never a shop I got in to other than the J85. No time to get that involved.

Retired from all that now....couple more months and totally retired.

:)
Title: Re: Project: ArgoCeptor!
Post by: garretttpe on January 03, 2019, 05:26:19 PM
Cool
I went to school on the T56 then transferred to the T76(Garrett 331) during last phase of school, I also ran the test cell for the T700 (CT7) and now work on both the Garrett 331 and CT7, the Garrett is on the CASA 212 and CT7 is on the Bell 214...8 years and hopefully I will be retired......