Author Topic: Project: ArgoCeptor!  (Read 12312 times)

Offline garretttpe

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Sr. 6x6'er
  • ****
  • Posts: 264
  • Country: us
  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Project: ArgoCeptor!
« Reply #109 on: December 07, 2018, 07:10:47 AM »
SARgo1
what an awesome build so far, thank you so much for sharing. I look forward to seeing your posts everyday.. your morning is my night. I personally cant wait to see this beast running....

Makes me want to get another MAX just to modify the heck out of it

Offline SARgo1

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full 6x6'er
  • ***
  • Posts: 123
  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Project: ArgoCeptor!
« Reply #108 on: December 06, 2018, 11:34:03 PM »
Well, engine mounted to the power pack “sled”:





I elected to go the “simple route” for engine mounting. I just lopped the bottom of the VF frame off, used some 2” angle to make a platform on the sled and welded the frame rails directly to the 2” angle. The frame aleady had perfectly allgned mounts for the V4 engine, so I figured “why re-invent the wheel”? As a 90 degree V and a 360 degree crank pin, the V4 has perfect primary balance, so it doesnt vibrate. That's why Honda could mount it to solid mounts in the VF frame as a stressed member and the same reason why I can just straight up weld the frame sections to the argo “sled”.

You do get a second order vibe at around 7,000-8,000 rpm, but its just a very mild “buzz” at worst. If you feel it at all that is. I don’t plan to ever have the rpm that high in the Argo anyways. No need to be trying to rip along at 75-80 mph in an 8x8 Argo! Yipes!

Dropped it all into the engine bay:





Pretty good! Its a little further forward than I had wanted, but it was nessesary to clear things like the oil pan and a few other bits. Might make it a touch more nose heavy, but I’m hoping the planned group 27 battery mounted in its new spot at the very rear of the rig will help balance that out some. Time will tell...

The Argo trans is slid back about an inch and will get slotted mounting holes so I can make adjusters to tension the drive chain between the V45 and the Argo input  shaft. The Argo output chains will still be the stock argo ajusters on the back of the sled. The v45 is offset to the LH side in order to line up the vf output sprocket and the argo input sprocket a little closer. Looks like I will still have to make an offset output sprocket to get the final lineup correct. Not much, maybe 3/4-1” offset. Engine offset to the left isn’t such a bad thing for balance as the driver sits on the tight side of this rig.

The Argo input sprocket build will be more involved than just an offset sprocket like the V45 output. The sprocket and carrier will be reused from the CBR wheel that was on the VF. I’m currently also looking at machining out the wheel center to reuse the “cush drive” in the wheel hub. Basically, the sprocket carrier pushes into the wheel hub where there are rubber dampers. These dampers take up vibration and shock loads to make life easier on things like the gearboxes and chains. Would be nice to be able to incorporate it to make life easier on the Argo transmission as well as the VF box. I have a general plan worked out on how to do it, i just have to see if I have the clearances.

Building the exhaust is going to be “fun”. Its pretty tight up at the front cylinders and the rear pipes on the the V4’s are always a tight fit. Add in the fact I plan dual mufflers with rear exits and exhaust becomes a major project/pain all by itself.

Ugh. Exhaust fabrication is never easy...

I’m toying with using the stock Argo hood:



Theres no way it will clear the intake as it is, but if I turn it around backwards and make a spacer piece to raise it up, it will work. Looks a little “off” to my eye as it needs to be higher in the front (to clear the airbox) than the back (low enough to let the windshield fold). Still thinking about that or the custom fiberglass hood. Either way, I need about an additional 4” at the front to clear the airbox...
« Last Edit: December 06, 2018, 11:53:44 PM by SARgo1 »

Offline SARgo1

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full 6x6'er
  • ***
  • Posts: 123
  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Project: ArgoCeptor!
« Reply #107 on: December 05, 2018, 03:33:29 PM »
Can you not run tubing to a cone air filter?  Forego the box, and keep your intake out of the warmth of the engine?

The problem is the CV carbs. Because of the way they are designed to operate, they need to see intake vacuum/mass flow rates within their design limitations. Tossing pods on CV carbs is almost always a recipe for low power output and poor running. Same thing with just open CV carbs.

Tubing to a cone filter raises the need to make sure the vacuum signal is still within spec. But that's a "spec" that is unknown, except to the original engineers who designed the carbs and box.  But remote mounting the airbox is an option I have considered.

I absolutely have to keep the plenum above the carbs to keep the factory velocity stacks and flow characteristics, but most importantly: the aluminum lower lortion of the plenum is also part of the csrb support bracketry. But I have considered “slicing off”  the filter housing (part that sticks up so high), adding ducting to the remaining carb plenum and relocating the filter housing. I’d still have to make a “pop up” in the hood, but it would only need to be about 2-4” instead of 6-7” high. Thats a big difference when you are trying to look over it from the driver seat...

But it's a shot in the dark that anything besides the stock airbox will work properly.

I have jetted CV carbs to work without a stock airbox before and got it to run decently, but it's always more work than any sane person wants to undertake....
« Last Edit: December 06, 2018, 09:53:05 AM by SARgo1 »

Offline snaps10

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • 6x6'er
  • **
  • Posts: 85
  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Project: ArgoCeptor!
« Reply #106 on: December 05, 2018, 12:08:22 PM »
Can you not run tubing to a cone air filter?  Forego the box, and keep your intake out of the warmth of the engine?


Offline SARgo1

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full 6x6'er
  • ***
  • Posts: 123
  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Project: ArgoCeptor!
« Reply #105 on: December 04, 2018, 08:13:58 PM »
Well, there it sits;





All 88 screaming Honda horses!

No mounts built yet, but that's where it needs to sit to line up with the Argo transmission and adequately clear the front of the tub and the frame.

It also means the Argo transmission has to slide back about 1.5-2.5 inches to clear the back of the V45 transmission case. Not that big a deal as I've got new double 40 chain to replace the worn out transmission to idler shaft chains. I'll just make the chain a little longer and the chain doesn't care if it's running straight up and down or on a little bit of an angle. As long as the sprokets are in the same plane, chains are happy to just go about thier business. There should also be enough clearance to the firewall to slide it back that much. If not, it doesn't really matter as I think I'm going to have to make a new firewall anyways. The front footwell isn't exactly what you would call "roomy" to start with, but you'll never notice an inch or two of less.

Looks like about a 12" run from the V45 output sprocket to the Argo input shaft. The V45 output will sit lower than the Argo input, so that will have an upward run. Again, chain doesn't care about it's orientation as far as that goes.

Here you can see the issue the airbox poses:



Sits pretty high as it is. I think I can cut the box just behind the upper airbox lid screws and angle the forward portion down. That would make it easy to get under a custom hood with a reasonable "bulge"in the center.

Its a bit of work to get this all to fit, but nothing outside of my wheelhouse. Pretty basic fabrication stuff for me actually.

Oh, the height the whole rig is sitting at on teh jack stands is probably where it will end up once I'm finished the suspension fabrication. It will go from about 5" at the lowest point on the tub/skidplate to about 11-12" at the lowest point. Not a huge jump in ground clearance, but adequate for me as the rig is pretty hard to get stuck as it is with the HDPE just sliding over everything. I just want to drag and gouge it less than I do now. No tto mention, suspension to soak up the impacts before it gets to the ol' bod....

:)
« Last Edit: December 04, 2018, 11:33:45 PM by SARgo1 »

Offline SARgo1

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full 6x6'er
  • ***
  • Posts: 123
  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Project: ArgoCeptor!
« Reply #104 on: December 04, 2018, 02:26:35 PM »
Decided to just pull the whole power pack tray in order to fit the V45 engine. And then teh Joy of PO damage popped out at me:





It's hit something pretty hard in it's past. The plastic tub and skid plate are fine, but the steel frame plate is bent up a good 3" in the worst spot. You can even see where it w jammed up into the drive sprockets, which wore a new "channel" in the metal!

Oh well, time to be the BFH out....

Offline SARgo1

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full 6x6'er
  • ***
  • Posts: 123
  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Project: ArgoCeptor!
« Reply #103 on: December 04, 2018, 10:02:54 AM »
Still playing around with photoshop:



That's starting to look pretty good!

Offline garretttpe

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Sr. 6x6'er
  • ****
  • Posts: 264
  • Country: us
  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Project: ArgoCeptor!
« Reply #102 on: December 04, 2018, 07:02:47 AM »
I think if you use the big hammer on left in picture number 6 the engine will fit fine. hilarious hilarious, awesome job so far

Offline SARgo1

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full 6x6'er
  • ***
  • Posts: 123
  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Project: ArgoCeptor!
« Reply #101 on: December 03, 2018, 09:25:54 PM »
No harder than the Kohler was....

Offline ascaw

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Master 6x6'er
  • *****
  • Posts: 534
  • Country: us
  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Project: ArgoCeptor!
« Reply #100 on: December 03, 2018, 08:26:10 PM »
That is a really tight fit.  Not much room to play with.  How hard will it be to change the oil?

Offline SARgo1

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full 6x6'er
  • ***
  • Posts: 123
  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Project: ArgoCeptor!
« Reply #99 on: December 03, 2018, 06:46:19 PM »
I officiated over 2 divorces today:





After the official proceedings were finished, they went their separate ways for that happy and swinging single time everyone experiences after getting out of a dying/dead relationship:



Then they noticed someone new that they might like to “get with”:



Then the always awkward first date, a night cap at the end and then someone ends up in bed with someone else:





It was awkward, slightly uncomfortable and maybe even a bit painful, but still strangely satisfying. Both have enough curiosity to want to try it again on a second date!

 :lol:

Man, that V-four looks the business sitting in there! Quite a serious looking piece of kit! Like a 60’s muscle car with too much engine in too small a chassis, it looks ready to party!

So the big V45 fits....well, mostly. It’s sitting quite high right now, but there’s  a good 5” it can be dropped. The old Kohler engine mount bracket is narrower than the V45 oil pan and the engine is sitting up on top of it right now:



There may also be an additional inch or two I can drop if I rework the “power pack” tray. But with just the 5” drop from removing the Kohler bracket, that will get all of the V45 under the stock hood height. All of it except for the carb plenum/air cleaner housing. Thats easily handled with a custom hood. The real issue is its further forward than what I measured, which may be a problem with packaging it all inside the Argo body. Anything that alters the airbox too much turns CV carbs in to a total jetting nightmare...

Tomorrow I’ll look at getting it fit in there at a proper height. Which means cutting the Kohler engine mount brackets off. Sort of a “not turning back” point, but in reality I can always weld them back on if needed.

Lots more to sort out and build, but its a good start!

:)
« Last Edit: December 03, 2018, 08:12:05 PM by SARgo1 »

Offline Argo8x8

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • 6x6'er
  • **
  • Posts: 71
  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Project: ArgoCeptor!
« Reply #98 on: December 03, 2018, 04:35:17 PM »
Enjoying watching your build, Thanks Jeff Bar

Offline SARgo1

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full 6x6'er
  • ***
  • Posts: 123
  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Project: ArgoCeptor!
« Reply #97 on: December 03, 2018, 12:06:57 PM »
Fooling around with photoshop:







just kicking ideas around......

Offline SARgo1

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full 6x6'er
  • ***
  • Posts: 123
  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Project: ArgoCeptor!
« Reply #96 on: December 03, 2018, 07:07:52 AM »
Put some work into getting the Kohler ready to pull. With most of the bits out, i could take better measurements. That big v4 750 is going to be a squeeze!

I’m not sure if it will fit lengthwise. Its a good 8-10” longer than the Kohler and the Argo transmission might be an issue, space wise. Theres room in the tub to go further forward with the v4, but its hard to say how tight a fit it will be until I actually set it down in the engine bay. I also don’t want to get the front cylinder header pipes too close to the plastic hull. I may end up having to see if I can sneak the argo transmission back a few inches, but there’s precious little room for driver and passenger legs in the front seat already. 

Height of the V4 is also a problem. Well, it’s not a problem if I dont use hood. Yeah...that's not going to happen!

I will have to modify the airbox. It’s just too tall with it sitting down in the engine V between the cylinders. But it only means making a cut and rotating the front half of it down to level. I can then plastic weld a patch piece in and there should be minimal disruption to the airbox other than added volume (not always a bad thing!).

The hood I have a couple options. I can make a spacer to pop the oem hood up about 3-4 inches:



But I have to leave the rear lower than the front in order to still be able to lower the windshield and still get the height I need in the front to clear the V4.

Second and third options are I can mount the fiberglass hood facing forward or rearward:





Opening facing forward still doesn’t look right to me and the hood slopes to the back pretty severely to clear the windshield pivot. I’m also not sure how to make the opening look like anything else besides “unfinished, even if I add some kind of meshing. I could make it look like something finished,  ut it will always stand out as “odd”. The angles are just all wrong.

Open rearward still looks the best, but the front still looks pretty high. The scoop is actually sitting level across the top as it has a taper built in to it for the “scoop forward” orientation, so the “nose high” is a bit of an illusion from the angles.

I think I’m still going to go with the rear facing fiberglass hood. The front I can mitigate the “blocky look” by sculpting the side and leading edge to more of a taper to meet the body and the V4  engine is only about 10” wide at the air cleaner and heads. That means I may still have to make a “bump” in the middle at the front, but that's pretty easy to make look OK on a hood. I might even be a to add the firebird vents to the sides of the bulge to make it look more integrated and pull it all together more visually. IOW: like the bulge is designed to be there.

The v4 swap is not exactly “falling together” like it’s meant to be there, but a plan is taking shape...

Offline SARgo1

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full 6x6'er
  • ***
  • Posts: 123
  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Project: ArgoCeptor!
« Reply #95 on: December 03, 2018, 07:05:14 AM »
Nice work, thanks for the pictures and posts, I enjoy seeing your progress. I noticed you have a long piece of SCAT hose, what will that be used for? We use the heck of SCAT in Aviation..

That's for the brake cooling ducting.

I'm military, Flight Engineer.

;)